The Mohammed Cartoons - A Response

[Hax]

Yesterday, the Public Ministery of the Netherlands made known that the Arab European League will not be persecuted for their placement of a cartoon in which two Jewish men are standing among a graveyard at Auschwitz stating: "We have to reach six million one way or another."

http://www.nisnews.nl/public/200809_1.htm source in English.

To be honest, I won't side with any party here, but I find the arguments of the Public Ministery in the Netherlands ridiculous; "The Jylland-Posten cartoons did not incite hatred against Muslims". The same could be said about the cartoons posted by the AEL.

Considering freedom of speech; this is not denial of the holocaust, which is banned in most European countries (which I disagree with in the first place). This is a form of criticism on the state of Israel, or Zionism, rather, which I find to be on the same level as criticism of/insulting Islam which came forth from the Jyllands-Posten cartoons. Oh well, we'll see what happens. I'm not sure what to think, actually.

Link to the cartoon.

[English assassin]

I don't understand?

Danish paper publishes offensive cartoon, most of Europe shrugs shoulders because that;'s what freedom of speech means,, (part of) Islamic world goes (belatedly) nuts.

AEL publishes offensive cartoon in the hope that they will be punished and can say see, its one rule for muslims and another for the Jews, alas for them, they are not punished, because its one rule for jews and the same rule for muslims after all.

Damn you, Dutch authorities, for being reasonable, instead of the one dimensional anti islamic bogey men we wanted to protray you as.

The only problem is the ministry having got there the hard way?

[Centurion1]

I don't think it is very classy and very scummy to make jokes like that but i find a flaw with the AEL plan in two places.

1. Not particularly insulting to the dutch as they are not all Jewish. It would be more insulting in Israel, i would imagine.

2. They are trying to get a Western European nation to infringe on freedom of speech. Honestly it probably won't happen for something as stupid as this.

Dutch response is perfect, makes the AEL out as total scummers and they seem level handed.



I am sort of surprised Fragony hasn't posted here yet....

[Hooahguy]

a cartoon in which two Jewish men are standing among a graveyard at Auschwitz stating: "We have to reach six million one way or another."

Considering freedom of speech; this is not denial of the holocaust,

what the ?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In the Netherlands, why isn't it a picture of Peter taking Jesus off the cross alive, or of John Calvin dancing on an alter whilst playing a fiddle?

The target they picked says more about them than anything else, surely.

[Hooahguy]

wasnt the artist who drew those anti-muslim cartoons a while back christian? so why do a cartoon against jews?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

what the ?

I think it's more on the order of the numbers being inflated, and that Jews milk the Holocaust for political sympathy.

Not exactly in good taste, but not quite Holocaust denial either.

[Hooahguy]

while the number of jews who died wasnt exactly, 6 million, it was pretty darn close.
its holocaust denial. dont try to make it anything less than what it is: a disgusting piece of jew-hatred.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

while the number of jews who died wasnt exactly, 6 million, it was pretty darn close.
its holocaust denial. dont try to make it anything less than what it is: a disgusting piece of jew-hatred.

Calm down, it's meant to be insulting and provocative; so don't let them provoke you into being insulted.

As I said, it's a political cartoon. It's not acceptable, but nor is the suggestion that a legendary religious leader kept bombs in his headgear.

[Hooahguy]

but nor is the suggestion that a legendary religious leader kept bombs in his headgear.

agreed.

[LittleGrizzly]

dont try to make it anything less than what it is: a disgusting piece of jew-hatred.

Its no different to the Muslim hatred of the other cartoons, support thier freedom to do such stuff but i do wonder why the artists of both cartoons did what they did...

Probably both sets of artists are immature and needed a channel for thier anger agianst jews (or muslims in mohammed cartoon example)

I wonder will the mainstream media reprint these to prove they have freedom of speech and are not afraid of being un pc ?

[Vladimir]

Another loss for teh Muslims. They should have posted a cartoon of Jesus having gay sex with Judas. Place it in a newspaper in Alabama. That would get the response they were looking for.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Another loss for teh Muslims. They should have posted a cartoon of Jesus having gay sex with Judas. Place it in a newspaper in Alabama. That would get the response they were looking for.

Whoa, that is some commendable imagination there...

That said I heard there was one notably infamous pornographic film on Jesus called "The Last Temptation". I doubt it had homosexual acts in it, and yet IIRC, the film was not quite that controversial, I suppose because the porno industry lost its shock value after we had been desensitised with its outrageous fetishes.



Hmm, but on the Holocaust issue, AFAIK, more Slavs died in the German hands than Jews. Yet I have only heard one person citing that (besides books), and it was my college Humanities professor. What exactly is considered a "Holocaust" casualty? Germans slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Jews in occupied USSR. The most (in)famous site of such massacre was Babi Yar, not too far from Kiev. I have been there myself in fact.

Then you have the mass cleansing of villages. In larger cities Jews were usually too numerous to be dealt with in the "regular" manner (firing squads), so they were usually transferred to death/concentration camps or even factories at times, to work there. In villages and very small towns, however, the Jews were usually murdered on the spot. My grandparents lived in one of such villages. On my fathers side, my grandfather witnessed his best friend, a Jewish boy of 12-14 years, being executed. It was something my grandfather always remembered. The poor boy's army was shot off in the initial volley, and he was the lone survivor. He ran and thrashed until the Romanian collaborators dispatched him with a rifle butt. Yeah, that was another detail. Usually, the Germans were too finicky about actually carrying out the "business" themselves and instead had collaborators, usually the Romanian soldiers, do the butchering.

So villages were combed and rendered "Judenrein", but is that counted as the Holocaust death toll, or is it a mere civilian casualty toll of USSR? Such villages numbered in hundreds of thousands. My grandparent spoke of the thriving Jewish communities in the Moldova-Ukraine border (where they live) but after the war, they said, there could not be found as much as a single Jew. Same with their own village. To this day, it has no Jews. But the size of the Jewish cemetery there is quite impressive, indicating a bustling Jewish population in that village.

This said, calculating the number of Jews killed in USSR is a daunting, truly Herculean task, so was it ever done, and included in the Holocaust figure or not?

[Kadagar_AV]

people should be able to say / sing / type / paint WHATEVER...

if you take offense, boycott and move on with your life.

[Fragony]

If that cartoon upsets you you should grow a thicker skin.

edit: what is Auswitch. Never heard of it. Major fail.

[Brenus]

Technically it is not a Holocaust denial…
And I do think that 6 millions is in fact an underestimation of the total. Because the only “figures” are from the recovered archives of some organised camps which doesn’t count the ones who never made it in the camp, the ones who were killed without registration and the immense number killed in the village of former USSR, Poland and other Eastern countries (e.g. Croatia and Hungary) as Aemilius Paulus pointed out…

The other problem is to separate who was Slavs and who was Jews. Or is a Political Commissar in the Red Army was killed because he was a Political Commissar or because he was a Jew? Both. Where do you put in? If you are picky I mean…

The other point as Hoohaguy mentioned, is why do they draw against the Jews if it is a real answer to the Mohamed pictures? It is because they are anti-Semitic…

Some like Kadagar AV think it is their right to be and to express it. I don’t.

[Fragony]

The other point as Hoohaguy mentioned, is why do they draw against the Jews if it is a real answer to the Mohamed pictures? It is because they are anti-Semitic…

Sure but so what really. In this country you can be deeply insulted, no free pass for jews.



Anti-semites, their loss

edit: Hans Teeuwen says it best. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d8c_1199897954

[Kadagar_AV]

Some like Kadagar AV think it is their right to be and to express it. I don’t.

You argue against my right to be, or my right to express it, or both?

I believe in the idea of the "free word". Say whatever you want to say, if it makes sence people will listen, if it doesnt make sence people wont.

Why do we need laws to regulate that?

[Kralizec]

I've been aware of the AEL's existance for years, but they rarely manage to make the news. The last time I heard of them was right after the unrest in the middle east during the cartoon crisis when they started...publishing anti-semetic cartoons. So when I first read this I had a major case of deja-vu.
I agree that both the Danish cartoons and these ones should be considered acts of free speech - but it does expose them for what they are, a bunch of anti-semites craving for attention.

Also, holocaust denial is technically not illegal in the Netherlands. There's a general article in our Criminal Code that makes insulting religious or ethnic groups illegal. So if you tried to make a serious case that the holocaust did not take place without anti-semetic slogans or whatnot, you would be ridiculed but not punished.

[Kadagar_AV]

ridicule, over what?

did a *amount of jews get killed? Indeed...

Is the amount the alleged 6 mil...

Jury is still out on that one.



Don't get me wrong, I dont care if it was 1 mil or 6 mil... It is not about statistics but about the crime against humanity that was commited...


However, as a historian I take the number of 6mil with a grain of salt, in the same way I take the story of Thermopyle with a grain of salt...

300 spartans against 2 million persians?
300 spartans and 1000 helping troops against 500.000 persions?

History has claimed both. The net result however is that it was a marvelous deed.


6 million jews or 2 million jews?

Who cares, a lot of jews were killed for being jewish. It is not about the number, it is about the act.

[Fragony]

All the more tasteful



The long toes of the dutch and the opinion of docter Nataniel (from the CIDI Israel relations organisation) from the clinic of difficult feet.

On the left toe is 'blasphemy' on the right toe holocaust denial.

'the left one can be fixed with surgery, the right one is supposed to be like that'

[Rhyfelwyr]

Does being a holocaust denier have to mean you are anti-semitic anyway? Maybe some people just believe it was exaggerated/used for Allied propaganda/whatever. I don't think that but you know what some conspiracy theorists are like, it seems unfair to lock them up for it.

Although I never understand why neo-Nazi's deny the holocuast... don't they just want another one anyway?

[Fragony]

Although I never understand why neo-Nazi's deny the holocuast... don't they just want another one anyway?

Maybe they just can't come to terms with the nazi's being the sick bastards they were.

[LittleGrizzly]

Although I never understand why neo-Nazi's deny the holocuast... don't they just want another one anyway?

I have checked out Nazi forums (quite intresting) and they seem to swop between celebrating it, denying it and accepting something happened but questioning the scale and brutality of it...

I think some of the more logical thinking racists realise that despite they fact they see it as a victory from the past its the worst pr ever for more normal people... but they can't seperate from it too much as jew hating is an important part of who the hardcore members are..

To give a political example it would be like Labour did shifting thier politics, it disenfranchised thier core vote...

[rvg]

Holocaust deniers have the same right to their views as the flat earth society. Let them be and let them spout their nonsense. Who cares?

[Hooahguy]

Holocaust deniers have the same right to their views as the flat earth society. Let them be and let them spout their nonsense. Who cares?

maybe in the fear that they may actually convince some people?

[rvg]

It's just sad that jews get the flak for these toons. Muslims can't really insult Jesus without insulting their own religion, so they lash out at Jews. Just like if somebody in Israel drew up a few Jesus cartoons, christians wouldn't be able to insult Abraham or Moses, it would be like spitting into your own food.

[Fragony]

I think they are lashing out at freedom of speech with that cartoon, must have thought they were really smart. Now they look like attention-whores grabbing at straws, exactly how I like it.

finger -> face -> MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That is how you deal with extremists.

[Centurion1]

It is just trash and scummy. all they are doing is embarrassing themselves and decreasing peoples views as them being a legitimate political entity. While the jokes are distasteful and i think that if i found someone who laughed at it i would beat the out of them, it is legal unfortunately. Unless you live in a country that doesn't have free speech...

Oh and is holocaust denial really illegal in Europe, wow is it a result of ww2 wartime guilt?

[Fragony]

Oh and is holocaust denial really illegal in Europe?

Not here, but in theory you can be charged with inciting hatred, would be an interesting testcase.