Scary units

[Ludens]

I am going to repeat lobf's and macrille's requests for sources. For the benefit of the discussion, can the next person that makes a claim about berserkers (of any kind) back it up with references?

I mean, the existence of berserkers is hazy enough to start with.

[Phalanx300]

I mean, the existence of berserkers is hazy enough to start with.

http://books.google.nl/books?id=9bId...age&q=&f=false

Page 57.

[Prussian to the Iron]

that was a very interesting section. reading a couple pages more talks about the Assyrian berserkers, and where they might have come from. thanks for that excellent read!

[Ludens]

http://books.google.nl/books?id=9bId...age&q=&f=false

Page 57.

I've skimread the text, and it doesn't convince me. The author seems to include every example of soldiers fighting impetuously and without armour (naked or not). That's not berserk, that normal tribal warfare. He also designates a figure on Trajan's column a berserker because his great stature and northern look are the hallmark of a berserker... There's more of such questionable examples: which I think proves my point that berserker is an ill-defined concept.

The section on Scandinavian berserkers seems more reliable, though.

[Phalanx300]

I've skimread the text, and it doesn't convince me. The author seems to include every example of soldiers fighting impetuously and without armour (naked or not). That's not berserk, that normal tribal warfare. He also designates a figure on Trajan's column a berserker because his great stature and northern look are the hallmark of a berserker... There's more of such questionable examples: which I think proves my point that berserker is an ill-defined concept.

The section on Scandinavian berserkers seems more reliable, though.

Well I think he's believable, he also talked about the Chatti in that book and how their youth didn't actually cut their beirds but simply removed the hair in front of the face(and iron/bronze necklace) and trow it backwards, he then calls a number of Germanics looking just like that found portraying that area.

Though he uses a bit of speculation.

He basicly sums up the warriors usually going by the word Berserker warriors:

Wolf warriors, Bear warriors, Long hairs(because of their extreme loyality and their frenzy to avenge a fallen leader, he also mentions the Germanic Bodyguards of some Emperors doing just this and killing his murderers), Naked Berserkers.

Also a interesting thing is that he mentions they would get themselves in a frenzy which would cause them to get high on adrenaline which docters also use to stop down bleeding in surgery. Which might be why we always hear them to be "invulnerable" to weapons and fire. And also why they were always very weak after a battle.

[Iasonis]

Well I dropped thier armor value from 5 to 0, shield from 4(same as a roman shield) to 2 and increased thier attack by 2 or 3. I left thier skill the same. They work perfectly now, very suceptable to pilium and arrow fire and very lethal up close. Maybe this will help?

[Power2the1]

Well I can say officially that the EB1 roster is getting an overhaul because I'm the one doing the overhauling.

Its true that there are some things in EB1 that made it into the game but appear to be unsourced or unreasonable claims. Drug use will not play the huge role that it did in EB1. Drugs and medicines were certainly known back then, even thousands of year before the Iron Age, and it would be kinda strange to think that the Celts (who did indeed use surgery and surgical tool have been found aplenty), had no concept of pain numbing methods: plants, herbs, concoctions, potions, smoke inhalation, or whatever.... that could be given to someone that wished to have their senses numbed or pain lessened.

Alcohol is certainly known to have played a part in Celtic ritual or prebattle preparation as the Celts have a couple deities with the sole association for "drunkenness/intoxication before battle." Its certain that alcohol would be used in surgical procedures as its still used today. However, on the flip side of the coin other ancient warriors all over that globe were known to have taken non alcoholic drugs of some kind before battle. So we know its certain that drugs could be used, but we are not saying that every single Gaesatae used drugs before battle or they made it some kind of norm. Chances are only a minority would use them. Drugs, herbal concoctions, potions, mixes, inhaling smoke, etc...can be applied to religious rituals for whatever the purpose was, such as visions, talking with the gods, making a warrior invincible in battle, etc...the possibilities are many so as far as I'm concerned the door to drug use before battle must remain open and we must keep an open mind about this, but drug use will certainly be toned down significantly to a more realistic ritual level for EB2.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4969360.ece
“Drug use became widespread in many early agriculture-based societies simply because it was the only way people could cope with spending long hours working in the fields, often in horrible conditions like baking sun,” he said.

Many archeologists believe religion and spiritual beliefs must also have played a part, with drugs being used to induce spiritual or trance-like states.

Obviously it mentions nothing about what was used in the European Iron Age, but plants, mushrooms, roots, herbal mixes, etc.... were all possible, especially if the quote on agricultural societies carries even an ounce of truth.

http://www.redshift.com/~damason/lhr...s/mkultra.html
The Mushroom Warriors
- Arguably, the Russians really were the first brainwashers, just as the propagandists of the 1950s alleged. 4500 years ago, the Koyak and Wiros tribes of the central Russian steppes conducted what may be the first experiments in stimulating violence through the use of drugs. The Amanita muscaria mushroom provided them with a drug which reduced the warrior's anxiety and fear while increasing his strength, stamina, mental acuity, and ability to withstand pain. The shamans first fed the mushrooms to reindeer, whose urine was drunk by soldiers on the eve of battle on the eve of battle, a practice later adopted by the Vikings. (Today's soldiers should ponder this history before complaining about their MREs.) Combatants in India relied on similar drugs, as did Native American tribes of the Southwest. Incan warriors made use of the coca leaf. The tradition has, of course, continued into modern times: In Vietnam, soldiers sought relief in a veritable psycho-pharma-cornucopia, which offered everything from marijuana to heroin. The warring tribes of Somalia, Rwanda and Liberia all routinely partake of the locally-preferred narcotics.)

As for the scariness aspect, if the Romans were somewhat frightened of the naked guys, "who were in the prime of life and finely built men," I am sure that plenty other ancient armies would be scared of them as well, even some rather experienced troops that otherwise had little history fighting against them. The scariness of a naked warrior (cult) could certainly work. In Liberia a general or warlord that claimed to be under the influence of the Devil sent his warriors naked (only guns and shoes) into battle as a scare tactic. I dunno, I guess it can still work today even...

[antisocialmunky]

I guess it would be something like African militiamen getting their aggression kicked up by stimulants. I think there were reports of Muslim Rebels during the American - Phillipine War taking some sort of drug so they could charge through small arms fire and take out American soldiers before collapsing.

[Macilrille]

The shamans first fed the mushrooms to reindeer, whose urine was drunk by soldiers on the eve of battle on the eve of battle, a practice later adopted by the Vikings.

Source? I do not know everything as I sometimes pretend, but I believe I would know if there was any source stating this. So I am curious.


Phalanx, I am unconvinced, as Ludens says he seems to quote any example ever that he can find. However a counterargument would require getting a sh*tload of books home from the Uni library (including his) and spending a lot of time researching and writing a counterargument, or rather my own interpretation of Viking "Berserkers", my vague idea BTW, includes people in armour.

Anyway, I am unconvinced.

[Prussian to the Iron]

The shamans first fed the mushrooms to reindeer, whose urine was drunk by soldiers on the eve of battle

funniest quote in this thread!