Scary units

[Power2the1]

Well I can say officially that the EB1 roster is getting an overhaul because I'm the one doing the overhauling.

Its true that there are some things in EB1 that made it into the game but appear to be unsourced or unreasonable claims. Drug use will not play the huge role that it did in EB1. Drugs and medicines were certainly known back then, even thousands of year before the Iron Age, and it would be kinda strange to think that the Celts (who did indeed use surgery and surgical tool have been found aplenty), had no concept of pain numbing methods: plants, herbs, concoctions, potions, smoke inhalation, or whatever.... that could be given to someone that wished to have their senses numbed or pain lessened.

Alcohol is certainly known to have played a part in Celtic ritual or prebattle preparation as the Celts have a couple deities with the sole association for "drunkenness/intoxication before battle." Its certain that alcohol would be used in surgical procedures as its still used today. However, on the flip side of the coin other ancient warriors all over that globe were known to have taken non alcoholic drugs of some kind before battle. So we know its certain that drugs could be used, but we are not saying that every single Gaesatae used drugs before battle or they made it some kind of norm. Chances are only a minority would use them. Drugs, herbal concoctions, potions, mixes, inhaling smoke, etc...can be applied to religious rituals for whatever the purpose was, such as visions, talking with the gods, making a warrior invincible in battle, etc...the possibilities are many so as far as I'm concerned the door to drug use before battle must remain open and we must keep an open mind about this, but drug use will certainly be toned down significantly to a more realistic ritual level for EB2.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4969360.ece
“Drug use became widespread in many early agriculture-based societies simply because it was the only way people could cope with spending long hours working in the fields, often in horrible conditions like baking sun,” he said.

Many archeologists believe religion and spiritual beliefs must also have played a part, with drugs being used to induce spiritual or trance-like states.

Obviously it mentions nothing about what was used in the European Iron Age, but plants, mushrooms, roots, herbal mixes, etc.... were all possible, especially if the quote on agricultural societies carries even an ounce of truth.

http://www.redshift.com/~damason/lhr...s/mkultra.html
The Mushroom Warriors
- Arguably, the Russians really were the first brainwashers, just as the propagandists of the 1950s alleged. 4500 years ago, the Koyak and Wiros tribes of the central Russian steppes conducted what may be the first experiments in stimulating violence through the use of drugs. The Amanita muscaria mushroom provided them with a drug which reduced the warrior's anxiety and fear while increasing his strength, stamina, mental acuity, and ability to withstand pain. The shamans first fed the mushrooms to reindeer, whose urine was drunk by soldiers on the eve of battle on the eve of battle, a practice later adopted by the Vikings. (Today's soldiers should ponder this history before complaining about their MREs.) Combatants in India relied on similar drugs, as did Native American tribes of the Southwest. Incan warriors made use of the coca leaf. The tradition has, of course, continued into modern times: In Vietnam, soldiers sought relief in a veritable psycho-pharma-cornucopia, which offered everything from marijuana to heroin. The warring tribes of Somalia, Rwanda and Liberia all routinely partake of the locally-preferred narcotics.)

As for the scariness aspect, if the Romans were somewhat frightened of the naked guys, "who were in the prime of life and finely built men," I am sure that plenty other ancient armies would be scared of them as well, even some rather experienced troops that otherwise had little history fighting against them. The scariness of a naked warrior (cult) could certainly work. In Liberia a general or warlord that claimed to be under the influence of the Devil sent his warriors naked (only guns and shoes) into battle as a scare tactic. I dunno, I guess it can still work today even...

[antisocialmunky]

I guess it would be something like African militiamen getting their aggression kicked up by stimulants. I think there were reports of Muslim Rebels during the American - Phillipine War taking some sort of drug so they could charge through small arms fire and take out American soldiers before collapsing.

[Macilrille]

The shamans first fed the mushrooms to reindeer, whose urine was drunk by soldiers on the eve of battle on the eve of battle, a practice later adopted by the Vikings.

Source? I do not know everything as I sometimes pretend, but I believe I would know if there was any source stating this. So I am curious.


Phalanx, I am unconvinced, as Ludens says he seems to quote any example ever that he can find. However a counterargument would require getting a sh*tload of books home from the Uni library (including his) and spending a lot of time researching and writing a counterargument, or rather my own interpretation of Viking "Berserkers", my vague idea BTW, includes people in armour.

Anyway, I am unconvinced.

[Phalanx300]

Phalanx, I am unconvinced, as Ludens says he seems to quote any example ever that he can find.

How exactly would this be a bad thing if its still fits the bill?

[Power2the1]

I fixed the link, Macrille, should work now. I did a quick search for "urine vikings reindeer" in Google. It appears that the ancient practice of doing this (not just Vikings, but others) could be how the saying of "getting pissed" originated. Interesting stuff about the mushroom drug effec tand mind altering substances.

[Macilrille]

Phalanx, it is if you cannot come up with more examples than he does. I have an extensive knowledge of the sources for Viking Age Denmark- Scandinavia and though I cannot deny or disprove the existance of naked warriors, I find it unproven as well. At some point I guess I will have to write my own interpretation...

Power, your link did not show me any source saying that Vikings drank Reindeer urine after feeding them mushies, nor did a google search for "Urine- Reindeer-Viking". In fact with my knowledge of sources for the Viking age I can say with 99.5% certainty that there is no such source. There is but a lack of knowledge and a fascination with Berserkers giving birth to various wild fantasies and with the I-net everybody can spread their ideas- the wilder, the more popular...

• There are no original Viking written sources really, unless you count runestones.
• Our foreign sources does not mention the practise.
• Our later (medieval) sources I am 95% certain do not either.
• Only very- very few Vikings in the absolute furtherst parts of Norway owned reindeer, most of the northern Norwegians just taxed the tribes up there, Sami, Finns etc (they had other names then).

That is why I can say with a fair degree of certainty that Vikings might have gotten p*ssed, but they did not drink Reindeer p*ss to get high.

Now Odin is the ultimate Shaman (read how he acquired the Runes) and he was the God of Battles and Dead (and also of Skaldic inspiration...), and no doubt Vikings would go into battle rage- in fact it is often attested and fits their culture and what we know of their ideology and belief, but it is for many other peoples as well. I bet you some of the guys in Iraq and Afghanistan have tried it... so to go from there and elaborate to a special elite corps of naked berserkers (and ulfhednir/wolfskins) it a bit far-fetched for my taste, sorry but I was weaned on source criticism...

[paullus]

The presence of nude Celtic combatants is well established in the historical record. There may be some who desire to paint the occurence as a rarity, an "out in a blaze of glory" tactic at Telamon and the practice of a small set of champions, but both historical accounts and representative art provide overwhelming testimony that a good many Celtic warriors fought in the nude. While we might be tempted to excuse the Pergamene Gauls and a few other examples as artistic renderings of the nightmare Galatian, we'd still have to deal with the presence of naked "friendly" Gauls, such as those depicted in Ptolemaic terracotta or the one shown on the painted Amazonomachy sarcophagus from late 4th century Etruria.

[Ludens]

How exactly would this be a bad thing if its still fits the bill?

Off course it's not a problem in itself, but in this case the author seems to drag in everything that looks vaguely related. Caligula's Germanic bodyguard killed a couple of senators after Caligula was murdered: how does that prove them to be berserkers? It's possible, but he should provide more evidence. As it is, he seems to think that angry Germanics equal berserkers. He even includes Julian the Apostate because he was killed in a skirmish where he did not wear armour.

That's stretching it, and while skimreading I saw several more of such questionable examples. And given we are dealing with a subject that is so prone to myth-forming and other distortions, I expect an author to be very careful with his evidence and assertions.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Off course it's not a problem in itself, but in this case the author seems to drag in everything that looks vaguely related. Caligula's Germanic bodyguard killed a couple of senators after Caligula was murdered: how does that prove them to be berserkers? It's possible, but he should provide more evidence. As it is, he seems to think that angry Germanics equal berserkers. He even includes Julian the Apostate because he was killed in a skirmish where he did not wear armour.

That's stretching it, and while skimreading I saw several more of such questionable examples. And given we are dealing with a subject that is so prone to myth-forming and other distortions, I expect an author to be very careful with his evidence and assertions.

Admittedly, I didn't read that far, but I agree calling someone a berserker for not wearing armor (or even clothes) is stupid. It's not like every soldier (especially in non-professional armies, where they have to pay for their own equipment) has enough money to either:

A) Pay for their own armor/clothes in a non-professional army

or

B) Be considered important enough to be anything more than a simple skirmisher, with either no need of armor, or not be considered worthy of armor.

[antisocialmunky]

That's stretching it, and while skimreading I saw several more of such questionable examples. And given we are dealing with a subject that is so prone to myth-forming and other distortions, I expect an author to be very careful with his evidence and assertions.

Perhaps then the EB team should therefore adopt an ends justify means mentality and create a unit that is phsycially just a naked guy with some naked guy on pain kill stats but on the proper occasion can be used to achive things reserved for myth and legend.

Perhaps make a high charge(for fighting a ferocious naked guy)/near unbreakable morale/fast(for being naked)/naked guy armor/slightly greater than average naked guy defense to account for pain killers/slightly higher attack(for being a ferocious guy)/scary(for fighting a ferocious guy).

That way they become pretty much a cavalry on two legs that aren't detered by mount effect or spear bonii. They can insta-rout tired units but are quite average in prolonged melee. It would make them quite capable of achieving spectacular results but at the same time, only be quite average and therefore live up both to myth and reality at the same time.

I jest but it seems like this is where Gaesatae are going with the information that has been leaked so far(including the greatest charging animation ever).

[moonburn]

Off course it's not a problem in itself, but in this case the author seems to drag in everything that looks vaguely related. Caligula's Germanic bodyguard killed a couple of senators after Caligula was murdered: how does that prove them to be berserkers? It's possible, but he should provide more evidence. As it is, he seems to think that angry Germanics equal berserkers. He even includes Julian the Apostate because he was killed in a skirmish where he did not wear armour.

That's stretching it, and while skimreading I saw several more of such questionable examples. And given we are dealing with a subject that is so prone to myth-forming and other distortions, I expect an author to be very careful with his evidence and assertions.

sorry to disagree but i read everything past page 87 (?)

and what the author claims is that there is evidence that there´s a type of cult/religion/tradition in indo european speakers with adopt a fighting style that may or may not be called bezerkers.

he actually discredit the use of drugs saying that there are certain rituals to increase adrenalin when someone decides to adopt that fighting style and that men could choose if they would fight in that style or not

he clearly makes the distinction beteween the wold bear and bezerkers style of fighting but claims that they all come from an old tradition of fair fight to prove one´s worth bravery and masculinity

even today in my own fam my father passed me the tradition of emptying my pockets and pulling up my sleeves before i engage in any type of competion to both dispose myself of the means to cheat and to prove that i´m not playing to obtain anything (either it may be cigarets keys cash or whatever i have in my pockets it must be out of me when going against others)

so we can say there´s a type of tradition of both fair play and bravado in some sence that as remained

not saying one should adopt the unit since he himself proves this fighting style weakpoints but admiting that the more tribal traditions did had this type of fighting style of "loosing your mind and throw yourself into batle not caring for tomorrow" does exist.

if this is usefull for eb2 ? i doubt it since these warriors could exist anywhere even in "civilized" factions sometimes a certain man in the right circumstances could go bezerk with bloodlust and pumped up in adrenallin but it´s still a worthy thing to debate

[Prussian to the Iron]

Maybe, with the Medieval 2 engine, it could be like a unit only recruitable in cties/castles with certain temples/shrines, at certain levels, with only 1-2 in the recruitment pool, and a 10-turn waiting period to get a new one from that city. and only barbarians and some easterners could recruit them, and only in a small area?

than it would be kinda balanced.

[Prussian to the Iron]

The shamans first fed the mushrooms to reindeer, whose urine was drunk by soldiers on the eve of battle

funniest quote in this thread!