Just Hurry Up and Die, Will Ya?

**Don Corleone** · 08-26-2009, 15:45

Read Page 12, where they discuss Mrs Chen, and heavily but indirectly editorialize that people with dementia should not be given feeding tubes.

I'm not opposed to living wills, I'm all for them. I'm upset with the tone of the pamphlet... "Rational people who care about society would choose to end treatment here, but you have to make your own choice" seems to be the gist of it.

**HoreTore** · 08-26-2009, 15:49

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Read Page 12, where they discuss Mrs Chen, and heavily but indirectly editorialize that people with dementia should not be given feeding tubes.

Uh...

That's reading a little too much into it, isn't it? The issue is sound; do you yourself want those tubes, or do you want to die instead? It's the basic question one has to consider when making a living will, and that's what this booklet is about, isn't it?

As for myself, I know I would like to die in that situation. Actually, much earlier than that. Same goes for my mother.

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I'm not opposed to living wills, I'm all for them. I'm upset with the tone of the pamphlet... "Rational people who care about society would choose to end treatment here, but you have to make your own choice" seems to be the gist of it.

I certainly didn't get that impression from the pamphlet. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...

Btw, as this pamphlet was suspended during Bush, what pamphlet did he provide instead of this one to help people create a living will?

**Tribesman** · 08-26-2009, 15:51

Read Page 12, where they discuss Mrs Chen, and heavily but indirectly editorialize that people with dementia should not be given feeding tubes.

No they don't.
They say that the daughter with power of attorney would have to make that choice on her own judgement, with a living will her mother would have already made that choice for herself.

**Don Corleone** · 08-26-2009, 15:56

Originally Posted by Tribesman

No they don't.
They say that the daughter with power of attorney would have to make that choice on her own judgement, with a living will her mother would have already made that choice for herself.

They didn't say she would have already made that decision. They're asking if the daughter should make that choice for her mother, in the absence of any knowledge of her mother's wishes.

**Tribesman** · 08-26-2009, 16:01

They didn't say she would have already made that decision.

Errrr...if she had made a living will then she would have ....thats the whole point of the publication Don

**Don Corleone** · 08-26-2009, 16:06

They (and you, apparently) are assuming an editorial bias never evidenced.

They're saying that if she had a living will in place, the daughter would have clear grounds to pull from (or never insert) a feeding tube from/into the mother. Yet nowhere do they ever state that was the mother's wish in the first place, and it's their scenario.

You and they assume that pulling the feeding tube is the correct and only reasonable course of action, all that is required is for people to put together living wills.

I don't want a feeding tube inserted, but I made that choice on my own. If you or anybody else wants one, I wouldn't dream of denying it to you. Well, maybe you, but not anybody else...

**HoreTore** · 08-26-2009, 17:01

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

They (and you, apparently) are assuming an editorial bias never evidenced.

They're saying that if she had a living will in place, the daughter would have clear grounds to pull from (or never insert) a feeding tube from/into the mother. Yet nowhere do they ever state that was the mother's wish in the first place, and it's their scenario.

You and they assume that pulling the feeding tube is the correct and only reasonable course of action, all that is required is for people to put together living wills.

I don't want a feeding tube inserted, but I made that choice on my own. If you or anybody else wants one, I wouldn't dream of denying it to you. Well, maybe you, but not anybody else...

Uhm.

In the given scenario, where the mother doesn't have a living will, the daughter will have to make the choice on whether to insert the tubes or not. If she had a living will, the mother would've made the choice herself already. The section I highlighted in your post is just plain wrong. It's not about whether to tube or not to tube, it's about already having sorted the situation out or letting someone else make the hard choices for you while you yourself is incapable. You might want to live. Your daughter might think you wouldn't want to. Daughter makes the call, you die. With a living will, you live. That's the issue here.

Also, take a look at the question posed below the little story. The entire point of the story is to make you think. It's printed there to force you to think about hard choices. The story isn't about pulling some tubes or whatever, it's simply a story heavily biased to show that a living will is incredibly useful. And I have to say, such a bias is very acceptable.

You still haven't answered what the Bush administration's pamphlet was though...

**Don Corleone** · 08-26-2009, 17:11

Originally Posted by HoreTore

You still haven't answered what the Bush administration's pamphlet was though...

As far as I know, there wasn't one. Last time I checked, the Bush administration wasn't big on euthanasia and encouraging the elderly & disabled to follow the path of the noble eskimo and convincing them to go climb onto an ice flow, for the good of the tribe, so I'm not surprised.