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  1. #1
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Go forth and multiply

    (Note: This is a thread seeking advice on whether to have children. You'll probably want to skip it unless that interests you.)

    My wife and I both turned 31 within the last few weeks. We've been together since we were 21 and we've been married since we were 26. We have talked about having children many times over the years. Our conclusions have always been the same: we're pretty sure we want a single child (just one) eventually, but we know we don't want it now. Something about 31 has made this conversation warp a bit this time around. My wife has numerous medical concerns, both for the baby and herself, that make her believe that she should not have a baby after age 35. I do not disagree with this, but 31 is a lot closer to 35 than 26 was. Uncomfortably closer, for both of us.

    The problem is that our opinions haven't changed. Neither of us want a child right now, we know that for sure. We are both lawyers, we both work full-time, and we are simply having a lot of fun in life right now. With two incomes, we have a very decent lifestyle and are both upwardly mobile within our own careers as well. We enjoy our freedom, both physically and financially, and we are totally content with each others' company.

    A child seems very threatening to our lifestyle. We will lose our freedom almost completely for several years, and it will be reduced from its current level even after the child is no longer an infant. We will certainly be able to afford the child, but there's no question it will result in a significant impact on our finances. We simply won't be able to spend like we do now, take the types of vacations we want, and do other frivolous things whenever we feel like it. In addition, we will rarely ever be alone again. We are best friends in addition to spouses, and we enjoy spending a lot of time alone.

    Thus, we are both very concerned that a child will damage a lot of the aspects about our lives that we value very highly. At the same time, there are many reasons to have a child. I have a great relationship with my parents and I would love to be able to share that kind of life with a child of my own. Both my wife and I find the prospect of teaching a child about the world and watching them grow up to be somewhat thrilling. We think that raising a child together and seeing him/her grow into a successful adult would add another layer of bonding to our already close connection. We both want to share things that we enjoyed as children with a child of our own: holidays, camping, bedtime stories, etc. Society as a whole also seems to proclaim that having children is a great and rewarding thing and that it brings with it joy that we’d have to be fools to miss out on.

    My wife has her own particular concerns about children. She does not think her parents have ever been happy since she was born, and while she knows they love her, she's not sure they love each other. She is very much afraid of losing her identity; she is a smart, capable and ambitious attorney with a strong career and hobbies that she enjoys. She definitely does not want to give that up to raise a child, but she constantly sees women around her changing from being 'Emily' or 'Susan' into 'Mom' or 'Mother.' She told me that a great number of her female work colleagues are consumed by maternal guilt and feel horrible if they do anything for themselves or put the baby down for even a minute to do something as innocuous as take a shower. She is also greatly concerned about the physical changes it will have on her body. She spent a lot of her life feeling unattractive and uncomfortable with her body. That is no longer the case. She is, to be blunt, thin, attractive, in great shape, and fashion-conscious. Feeling good about her appearance has done wonders for her self-esteem. The prospect of having a lot of that permanently altered by the physical process of pregnancy and childbirth is understandably frightening to her.

    In addition, both of us have observed alarming changes in some of our friends when they have children. Honestly, most of them become boring and annoying and cannot talk about anything in life other than their kids. We have drifted away from several couples we used to be friends with because after they had a child, spending time with them became uncomfortable because the only thing they could talk about was something we can’t relate to. While if we had a child, our childfree friends would surely think the same of us, we don’t want to be that way all of the time. We have some friends that we would like to continue seeing, even if we have kids and they don’t, or if our kids are different ages.

    So, what this all comes down to is that we don't know whether we want to have children or not. The clock is ticking away on us, and there simply isn’t enough time left to fit in all the things we want to do in life before age 35. Thus, we are now faced with deciding whether to choose a child over our own lives. We are very happy with our lives at the moment and we are afraid of losing that. We hear and read a great deal that indicates that having a child can be extremely rewarding, but we also read things that say that most people are less happy after they have children. We are attracted by the idea of creating a new person and introducing them to this world, but we don’t want to lose our freedom, our traveling, our lifestyles, and especially ourselves.

    I would appreciate advice and perspective from anyone who has gone through this process themselves; whether you chose to have children or chose not to. What decision did you make, why, and how happy are you now in comparison to how you were before? Also if you chose to have children, how old were you?
    Last edited by TinCow; 08-31-2009 at 20:34.


  2. #2
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    (Note: This is a thread seeking advice on whether to have children. You'll probably want to skip it unless that interests you.)
    Your post is very rational and sensible. Forget all about it. Because both of you want a kid, right? So just have the kid and deal with all the rest later on. Sure, it may 'cramp' your lifestyle, but not having it will cramp the rest of your life.

    Life is cup, should not remain undrunk.
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  3. #3
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Your future can be controlled by your children, or by someone else's children. Your choice.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    As a person who hadn’t children of his own (as far as I know as I speak to a lawyer) but now I have a parental duty as my wife’s daughter being a teenage pregnant…

    I have to say it wasn’t a choice at first, not to have children. I got divorced then I did a lot of things. No child means I went to a lot of countries, did some dangerous jobs, risked my life few times and almost lost the gamble…
    It was great: the wind of Bosnia, Sarajevo when sun rises, the dolphins in the Red sea, the mud and the rain in Zaire, the snow in Russia and others things. That is for the no-child option.
    I was free, enjoyed it.

    Now, when I put my grand-daughter to bed, when I dry her tears, when a little mouth is quietly sucking her dummy, I know why I did all what I did.
    When her little arms are around my neck, when her small breath calm down and she goes to sleep, sure to be protected, sure that nobody will come to arm her, I find the reasons why I joined the Army long time ago.
    I can’t describe the feeling to have her, to see her moving, thinking, being a human in motion. Her cheekiness, the fact she know she is ruling over me, and the love I have for her…

    So, when walking from work, from a usual job, not a job where I save the victims of cataclysms (human made or nature made) I wonder when I was happy.
    Well, in both.
    When I had the adrenalin rush, when I saved lives, when I run under shells and bullets I was.
    When I cover her small body with her blanket, when I give her the good night kiss, I am happy.

    It is not or.. or..
    It is instead. There is no unique answer.
    Our future is in (mostly) in our hands. We can be happy with or without children…

    Don’t be scared. It is just another life where priorities are different, where entertainment is different, where all is different.
    Now, I heard a lot of colleagues who refer to the life before kids as the Golden Age, ignoring the fact that they didn’t do a lot of things at that time.
    They idealised these moments so spoil the moment they live now.
    I remember one of my friends driving me to the airport for an overseas mission. He envied me. But the night before, when I saw him with his young baby I was crying of jealousy.

    For me, to have kids or not was never a choice. Life did it.
    So, you want a kid, just do it. Yes, it will change your life but nobody can tell you if it will be for the best or the worst.

    In life there are no if no but. What if I have chosen the Foreign Legion? What if I didn’t divorce? What if…
    Whatever the choice you will do, you will never be able to be sure it was the right one.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Well, I don't have any experience with having children. But I think all your concerns are very valid, and it seems like the health concern with age thing is what's putting the pressure on. How viable a choice is adoption instead of having your own child? You could decide to adopt if you ever reach the point where you really want kids.

  6. #6
    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Personally, I have decided not to have a kid. I understand the appeal that they can give, and I like kids, but babies are a pain in the ass, they cost too much and I want to live my life wholly for myself. You will forever be giving up the life you live now if you have a baby; it will change dramatically, and I would argue for the worse. Mostly because you will likely join the child-worshipping zombies you speak of.

    (As an added bonus for not having a baby, it's better for the environment.)

    If you are not 100% sure that you do want a baby, I would strongly advice against having one, because having a baby is not something you should take lightly; they don't call it a lifetime job for nothing. If you do pass the age of 36 and then decide you want one, you can adopt a kid instead, but I want to stress how important it is for you to be sure about it first; both for your own sake, and for the baby's. Anything else would be irresponsible.

  7. #7
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    I have also decided against children. I'm a fairly selfish person with my time, I understand what sacrifices are necessary to raise a child properly, and I don't think I am willing to do it. Better to not have any kids than to raise them half-*****. But that's just me.

    Your take on what happens to people with kids is pretty accurate. As I've gotten older, and friends have given in to their reproductive urges, I've seen how they change, and while I understand the need, it's not good. Babies have a way of turning fully functioning adults into babbling fools. Groups of friends will quickly split into the child-laden vs the childless.

    Don't wait too long if you are sure you want a child though. You don't want to fight off your teenage daughter's suitors or try to control your hooligan son when you are pushing towards 60.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    TC, if you don't have children, this is what you'll be contributing to.


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  9. #9
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    "Go forth and multiply". I'm glad you named your thread with that title, because it points up your (our) dilemma: going forth and multiplying was unavoidable until 50 years ago, unless you decided to live alone as a hermit in the woods. It was a "command" driven by biology, and a duty incurred by merely breathing/existing.

    But not anymore. Now we can choose. Therefore, we must choose; a situation not encountered by our great-grandfathers.

    So, you started out with 2 jobs: son, and human. Human is always gonna be there. "Son" takes up less time now than it did 20 years ago. You took up "Husband" 10 years ago, and "Lawyer" pretty soon afterwards. Both volunteer jobs. And apparently mastered well enough that you now have enough free time that you're thinking about another volunteer job: "Father" (and good on ya that you understand your Husband job entails thinking about your spose's prospects as "Mother", too.).

    Will the "dad" job interfere with your other jobs? Sure, but you'll get the hang of it, just like you did with Lawyer and Husband. After the initial shock of just how much time and treasure is involved, you'll slide into the role just fine, cuz... well, we're designed for it. And you're a mindful kinda guy, as evidenced by your OP thoughts, so I'm not in the least worried that you'd be neglectful or abusive, or anything but a fine Father.

    So, my advice? I see nothing holding you back.

    Here's a tip from an old guy: the real payoff on the Dad gig is grandkids. After 2 decades of commitment to your kids, and maybe a little gratitude along the way, being a respected, trusted, relied-upon grandfather to your grandson, pays double for all the misery, toil, and drudgery of fatherhood.

    All that said: I know you'll make the right decision for the missus and you, and back up whatever you decide 100%. Best of luck, whichever way you go.

    And I'm intrigued by HoreTore's idea of condom russian roulette. :)

    -edit-
    You asked for perspective and backround. I chose to have kids at age 22 (spouse 20). Am the bio-Dad of 2 girls, from that decision. Have been the step-dad of 4 others, after the divorce of that original marriage. Now the grumpa of 2 7-year old boys, one from the bio-daughter, 1 from a step-son.
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 09-01-2009 at 14:38.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    I think you sum up the factors in making a decision about having children well. But you have to decide.

    If you decide to have children - the decisions start to come thick and fast - with everyone and no-one having all the answers
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    (Note: This is a thread seeking advice on whether to have children. You'll probably want to skip it unless that interests you.)
    I sympathise.

    I am early thirties, my better half is the same age, and we are as yet childless. I too have a great life without children, I enjoy my us-time, my pub time, my mountain bike time, my computer time, my reading time, and my just want to be alone time, and i definitely see this as being wrecked by child time.

    My better half has shall we say; a greater enthusiasm for parent-hood and a similar sense of time running out, however there are no deadlines or demands on her part.

    I also get distinctly bored by typical conversation and lack of options with people with kids (tho maybe not a representative sample IRL), and certainly don't want me and the better half to end up the same way.

    I have nothing in principle against the idea of being a dad, but no enthusiasm either, and certainly the answer is always "not now" whenever the question has been considered.

    In short, matters are unresolved, and while they remain unresolved we continue to have a good life, can you see where this is going*?









    * rapid separation is one possibility :p
    Last edited by Furunculus; 09-01-2009 at 21:32.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    So overall it seems that the more selfish you are the less likely you are to want children. I wonder if this is the foundation for those who try to live vicariously through their children.

    I'm trying to avoid a rant here but I can't say I'm impressed.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Life changes when you have children. You see things differently.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  14. #14
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Life changes when you have children. You see things differently.
    Yeah, with green baby doodoo on your spectacles and two inch bags under your eyes for lack of sleep, you see things very, but very differently. Don't worry, you'll come out a stronger and better man.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 09-01-2009 at 20:46.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Yeah, with green baby doodoo on your spectacles and two inch bags under your eyes for lack of sleep, you see things very, but very differently. Don't worry, you'll come out a stronger and better man.
    I never said you would be stronger or better. I just said you see things differently. Don't get touchy.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    So overall it seems that the more selfish you are the less likely you are to want children. I wonder if this is the foundation for those who try to live vicariously through their children.

    I'm trying to avoid a rant here but I can't say I'm impressed.
    not impressed with whom?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  17. #17
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    not impressed with whom?
    Not impressed by the fact that selfishness seems to be the primary motivation for not having children. I don't care how successful you are in life, your genetic legacy is the only one that endures. No matter how much of a "winner" you are in life you loose it all when you die.

    What is the meaning of life? The answer is in the question. Most people confuse that question with "What is the meaning of your life?"


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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  18. #18
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    fair enough.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  19. #19
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    Not impressed by the fact that selfishness seems to be the primary motivation for not having children. I don't care how successful you are in life, your genetic legacy is the only one that endures. No matter how much of a "winner" you are in life you loose it all when you die.

    What is the meaning of life? The answer is in the question. Most people confuse that question with "What is the meaning of your life?"
    We do not have an obligation to anyone high above to reproduce ourselves. That decision is ours alone, and if we do it, it will be because we want it ourselves.

    Selfishness? Oh please. Those who choose not to have kids are doing you a favour, by freeing up resources for and your mini-versions. In fact, we'd do the entire world a favour if we dropped our baby-rate quite a bit.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  20. #20
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    Not impressed by the fact that selfishness seems to be the primary motivation for not having children. I don't care how successful you are in life, your genetic legacy is the only one that endures. No matter how much of a "winner" you are in life you loose it all when you die.
    That may be, but your genetic legacy can pay off the monstrous debt it will face. Mine wants no part of it.
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