Language ban in Slovakia

[Meneldil]

Typical nation-building experiment. Any country in the world has done it at some point, and though it's clearly aimed at minorities and is discriminating, I don't really get the fuss. Trying to enforce the national language over minorities doesn't sound *that* wrong to me.

As multicultural states have proved repeatedly to be huge failures, I certainly can understand why Slovakia tries to enforce a single culture. That's going to be rough for some people, but heh, that's how things go.

And come on, they're not banning foreign languages altogether, they're banning foreign languages from administrations and such.

[Idaho]

Typical nation-building experiment. Any country in the world has done it at some point, and though it's clearly aimed at minorities and is discriminating, I don't really get the fuss. Trying to enforce the national language over minorities doesn't sound *that* wrong to me.

As multicultural states have proved repeatedly to be huge failures, I certainly can understand why Slovakia tries to enforce a single culture. That's going to be rough for some people, but heh, that's how things go.

And come on, they're not banning foreign languages altogether, they're banning foreign languages from administrations and such.

It wouldn't sound bad to a frenchman! Your nation was built on destroying minority languages and doggedly defending modern french. At the time of the revolution only 10% of french people spoke french I believe.

[HoreTore]

Typical nation-building experiment. Any country in the world has done it at some point, and though it's clearly aimed at minorities and is discriminating, I don't really get the fuss. Trying to enforce the national language over minorities doesn't sound *that* wrong to me.

As multicultural states have proved repeatedly to be huge failures, I certainly can understand why Slovakia tries to enforce a single culture. That's going to be rough for some people, but heh, that's how things go.

And come on, they're not banning foreign languages altogether, they're banning foreign languages from administrations and such.

Yes, we all know that the US is a failed state, and that they are a failed state because of all those italian, french and spanish speakers....

[Meneldil]

The US built itself by enforcing the WASP ideal over the various newcomers.

Integrating the italian immigrants was a pain, nobody speaks french anymore except in some parts of the Maine and Louisiana and I doubt anyone would say that latinos' integration into the national community is a huge success so far.

I'd suggest you read how french as a language was wipped off the face of the British colonies/the newborn US. It wasn't 'hey dude, I know you have your own language, but you know speaking english would be cool too', but more among the lines of 'French is banned, period.' I'm not even going into the whole irish situation, the japanese and chinese cases and so on.

Of course, things are different now, because banning spanish or openly discriminating the latinos would be foolish, but if you think the US were built as a multicultural state, you're fooling yourself.

[HoreTore]

The US built itself by enforcing the WASP ideal over the various newcomers.

Integrating the italian immigrants was a pain, nobody speaks french anymore except in some parts of the Maine and Louisiana and I doubt anyone would say that latinos' integration into the national community is a huge success so far.

I'd suggest you read how french as a language was wipped off the face of the British colonies/the newborn US. It wasn't 'hey dude, I know you have your own language, but you know speaking english would be cool too', but more among the lines of 'French is banned, period.' I'm not even going into the whole irish situation, the japanese and chinese cases and so on.

Of course, things are different now, because banning spanish or openly discriminating the latinos would be foolish, but if you think the US were built as a multicultural state, you're fooling yourself.

I'm sorry, I missed that one.

But anyway, I'll take your US failure and raise you....

Switzerland.

Beat that.

[HoreTore]

double post

[Papewaio]

As multicultural states have proved repeatedly to be huge failures, I certainly can understand why Slovakia tries to enforce a single culture. That's going to be rough for some people, but heh, that's how things go.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/fr.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/as.html

Life Expectancy: Australia 81.63 years, France 80.98. Points 1 : 0
Olympics... do we even need to look this up, let alone adjust per capita. 1 points to Aus, 1 to France for inventing it. 2: 1
Economy:
Unemployment Australia Unemployment half that of France 3:1
GDP per Capita: Australia $38k US, France $32k 4:1
Public Debt: Australia 14% of GDP, France 68% 5:1
Industrial Growth Rate: Australia 3%, France - 2% 7:1 (shrinkage is never sexy).

etc.

And what do I see when I go around Sydney. Lots of places with signs in multiple languages. I can go to Auburn for Turkish food, Hay markets for Chinese, Strathfield for Korean, Cambramatta for Vietnamese. I can turn up at a doctors surgery and see signs in multiple languages, I can turn up at hospital and see translation services in multiple languages. We have French speakers and food too and they provide a lot of culture too, I love having french bread and croissants. Italian coffee and Dutch cheese.

I'll take multicultural failure above zero-culture success of those who believe in mono-culture any day of the week.

[Centurion1]

Surely the rule is that you have to be another Balkan state/prinicpality/ethnic group before bashing your fellow Balkan?

Well as a member of the croatian nationality i would like to mention the utter absurdity of this. It makes sense to have everyone speaking the same language, but everyone knows that you start off by indoctrinating the immigrants children. Gosh, does anyone study the 1900's immigration to America.........

[Tribesman]

It makes sense to have everyone speaking the same language, but everyone knows that you start off by indoctrinating the immigrants children. Gosh, does anyone study the 1900's immigration to America.........

Is that the immigration episode where they found English was too hard a language so they had to invent their own local version?

[Kadagar_AV]

Sweden has done the same thing, so has Spain... And so has... ... ...

*yawn*

One country, one language... It helps nation building...

For americans arguing, do you think the president should hold all speaches in english aswell as spanish, italian, portugeese, swedish, irish.... Or are you satisfied if he speaks english only

[Gregoshi]

For americans arguing, do you think the resident should hold all speaches in english aswell as spanish, italian, portugeese, swedish, irish.... Or are you satisfied if he speaks english only

"Press 1 for English. Press 2 for Spanish."

[Papewaio]

Kennedy was a hit for trying to speak German.

There is a huge difference between having a single language for road signs, textbooks, government administration and fining someone a years salary for speaking another language at a public institution.

That it is aimed squarely at a resident minority and not tourism also reeks of racism. There are far worse things then terrorism, one of which is governments creating racist institutions.

[Beskar]

Kennedy was a hit for trying to speak German.

There is a huge difference between having a single language for road signs, textbooks, government administration and fining someone a years salary for speaking another language at a public institution.

That it is aimed squarely at a resident minority and not tourism also reeks of racism. There are far worse things then terrorism, one of which is governments creating racist institutions.

I know what you mean, all you need to be is "dark skinned" and running late for a train and pow. You get shot.

[Incongruous]

I can't believe people axtually think this is a good idea.

Not only is it illegal, racist and stupid, but it will stir up nationaly hatreds across eastern Europe. Oh and the Hungarians there have een around for a long, long time.

[Strike For The South]

Sweden has done the same thing, so has Spain... And so has... ... ...

*yawn*

One country, one language... It helps nation building...

For americans arguing, do you think the president should hold all speaches in english aswell as spanish, italian, portugeese, swedish, irish.... Or are you satisfied if he speaks english only

The whole point is immagrants learn english anyway. Forcing them to do so would be counterproductive. You win people over with soft cultural not draconion measures on there speech.

[Meneldil]

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/fr.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/as.html

Life Expectancy: Australia 81.63 years, France 80.98. Points 1 : 0
Olympics... do we even need to look this up, let alone adjust per capita. 1 points to Aus, 1 to France for inventing it. 2: 1
Economy:
Unemployment Australia Unemployment half that of France 3:1
GDP per Capita: Australia $38k US, France $32k 4:1
Public Debt: Australia 14% of GDP, France 68% 5:1
Industrial Growth Rate: Australia 3%, France - 2% 7:1 (shrinkage is never sexy).

Japan life expectancy is over 82 and I can eat turkish and chinese food in France. What's your point? If you think the whole 'multicultural state' concept means eating french bakery and turkish kebabs, then I guess we have a definition issue.

It wouldn't sound bad to a frenchman! Your nation was built on destroying minority languages and doggedly defending modern french. At the time of the revolution only 10% of french people spoke french I believe.

You believe wrong. Most people spoke some form of french, even in the most remote areas, and sometimes even outside of officially french lands (Alsacian free states) most of the time with another local language. French had been the only language usable in official acts since the 16th (17th?) century. That's OOT though.


As for the main topic. Well, sad to say, but I don't give a crap. French is the only language usable in the french administration, yet tourists don't have huge problems getting their papers (not anymore than your usual frenchman). People working there can switch to english without being sued or sent to death camps by the state secret police. Get over it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'll take multicultural failure above zero-culture success of those who believe in mono-culture any day of the week.

Yes, but between France and Australia its the latter that is by far the more monocultural country.

France has twice the number of non-Westerners. France's white immigrant population is far more diverse than Australia's too, owing to more diverse immigration. And the French of French stock are among the most diverse of Europe too.

It always seems to come as a surprise to people, but France has been a major immigration country for two centuries now. White French are more easily compared to a diverse population like the US than to countries that were mostly etnically homogenous up until around 1970, like Denmark, Portugal or Australia. The people that lived in France in 1800 are a minority nowadays.


In Australia, your mixed marriage is an exception. Consider this:

Brenus - English spouse
TristusKhan - Egyptian girlfriend
Meneldil - native American Canadian girlfriend, who mercilessly bosses him around
Louis - Spanish soon-to-be-girlfriend

See?

[Louis VI the Fat]

There are some notable differences, based on historical experience and political outlook, between France and the Germanic world. (Usually 'Germany' is mentioned, but I think it can be expanded to describe entire Northern Europe and its colonial off-shoots):

French nationalism: not the race, but the language and the Republican values are the focal point.
Germanic: the Volk is central. Race is the focal point.

France: linguistic and legal equality is seen as a progressive force, against the particularism of old. In the Germanic world, the demand for uniformity is reactionary.

French unification is inclusive. As the famous example goes, in Senegal, the children would read in history class: 'our ancestors, the Gauls...'
Germanic unification is exclusive.


There is a third Western world: Eastern Europe. The Slovakian measures fit in neither scheme above. They must be regarded in the context of Hungarian / Slovakian difficulties, and ferocious nationalism.

[Furunculus]

There are some notable differences, based on historical experience and political outlook, between France and the Germanic world. (Usually 'Germany' is mentioned, but I think it can be expanded to describe entire Northern Europe and its colonial off-shoots):

French nationalism: not the race, but the language and the Republican values are the focal point.
Germanic: the Volk is central. Race is the focal point.

France: linguistic and legal equality is seen as a progressive force, against the particularism of old. In the Germanic world, the demand for uniformity is reactionary.

French unification is inclusive. As the famous example goes, in Senegal, the children would read in history class: 'our ancestors, the Gauls...'
Germanic unification is exclusive.


There is a third Western world: Eastern Europe. The Slovakian measures fit in neither scheme above. They must be regarded in the context of Hungarian / Slovakian difficulties, and ferocious nationalism.

how broad is your definition of germanic, arguably anglo-saxon britain might be included, but i wouldn't say britain was charachterised by ethnic nationalism, civic nationalism would be closer to the mark.

which definition of particularism are you branding countries with?

[Adrian II]

It always seems to come as a surprise to people, but France has been a major immigration country for two centuries now.

I keep repeating the same thing about the Netherlands, referring to the influx of Germans, Italians, Spaniards, Sephardim, French Huguenots, Scottish Puritans in the seventeenth century and to the (historically) recent influx of over three million immigrants from all over the world.

In my lifetime I count 300.000 immigrants from the former Indonesia, 370.000 from the former colony of Surinam, 372.000 Turks, 325.000 Moroccans, 183.000 Africans, 110.000 Latino's, to name but a few major groups.

Together, recent immigrants make up almost one-fifth of the Dutch population.

Yet we have no major riots, no explosive banlieus, no urban guerillas.

We're a team. We're doing fine, comparatively.

Oops, sorry. Wrong rhetoric. We stink to high heaven, of course. We're the beachhead of Eurabia! Our streets are teaming with gangs that speak a thousand languages, whole cities have been taken over by foreign forces, we keep our women and children in the home and barricade our doors at night. Soon the last living Dutchman will turn our the lights and emigrate to Canada.

[Rhyfelwyr]

They should Czech their posts more carefully.

Brilliant.

Scottish Puritans

You mean Scottish Presbyterians!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Furunculus, yes, I meant for the UK to be in the Northern Europe camp on this one. What with those dreams of populating the earth with members of the Anglosaxon race and all that.

Cecil Rhodes - there he is again-: 'Wouldn't it be a blessing to the world if those areas that are currently populated by the most wretched members of the human species were settled by members of the Anglo-Saxon race?'

Then two entire continents were genocided.

Together, recent immigrants make up almost one-fifth of the Dutch population.

Yet we have no major riots, no explosive banlieus, no urban guerillas.

We're a team. We're doing fine, comparatively.

That's great, Adrian!

You take a Switzerland. You let wanton mass immigration turn it into some sort of Brazil. And then you thumb your chest that you are not as completely run into the ground as South Africa yet.


Bless those rose-coloured multi-cultural sunglasses! Nothing to see here, move along!

[Adrian II]

That's great, Adrian!

You take a Switzerland. You let wanton mass immigration turn it into some sort of Brazil. And then you thumb your chest that you are not as completely run into the ground as South Africa yet.

I like the comparison. Swiss money, Brazilian style, Dutch courage. What's not to like, you jealous frog?

Seriously, why would you not recognize that we're doing well comparatively? Around the corner where I live some people speak languages that I have never heard of, yet when our national team play they wear orange caps and live inside their tv.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Together, recent immigrants make up almost one-fifth of the Dutch population.

Yet we have no major riots, no explosive banlieus, no urban guerillas.

No, you have Fragony.

[Adrian II]

No, you have Fragony.

He's from Czechoslovenia.

[Papewaio]

Yes, but between France and Australia its the latter that is by far the more monocultural country.

France has twice the number of non-Westerners. France's white immigrant population is far more diverse than Australia's too, owing to more diverse immigration. And the French of French stock are among the most diverse of Europe too.

It always seems to come as a surprise to people, but France has been a major immigration country for two centuries now. White French are more easily compared to a diverse population like the US than to countries that were mostly etnically homogenous up until around 1970, like Denmark, Portugal or Australia. The people that lived in France in 1800 are a minority nowadays.

Uphill battle for you.

25% of current Australians were born overseas (I'm Swedish/Welsh/English/Scottish/Irish/French born in Fiji).

Europeans didn't even settle within Australia until 1824. Only 2.6% of the Population is Aboriginal Australian or Torres Strait Island... that means since the 1800's 97% of the population is immigrant...

In Australia, your mixed marriage is an exception. Consider this:

Brenus - English spouse
TristusKhan - Egyptian girlfriend
Meneldil - native American Canadian girlfriend, who mercilessly bosses him around
Louis - Spanish soon-to-be-girlfriend

See?

I know the last part is a joke, but I love stats:
"Recent marriage patterns of overseas-born Australians There were 76,200 brides and 81,400 grooms born overseas in the three-year period 1996-98. Across all of these marriages, around 30 per cent, for both brides and grooms, were between partners in the same birthplace group. The other 70 per cent were mixed marriages, comprising about 30 per cent of marriages with long-time Australians and 40 per cent with other people from a different birthplace group. Overall, overseas-born brides were marginally more likely than overseas-born grooms to have married within their birthplace group."

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Recent marriage patterns of second-generation Australians There were more marriages of second-generation brides (88,100) and grooms (86,600) than there were of overseas-born people in the same three-year period. Marriage patterns among this group differed from those of overseas-born people. These differences were more marked for some birthplace groups than for others.
A larger proportion of these marriages (80 per cent each of brides and grooms) were mixed marriages than was the case for overseas- born people. These mixed marriages were evenly divided between those marrying long-time Australians and those marrying other people outside their birthplace group. For nearly every birthplace group listed, second-generation Australians had a greater propensity to marry long-time Australians than did overseas-born Australians. Exceptions were brides from the Philippines, where the proportion was much lower, and brides and grooms from New Zealand, where the proportions were slightly lower. For some birthplace groups, notably Viet Nam, China, the Federal Republic of Germany, India, Hong Kong, Poland, and the Former Yugoslav Republic, this difference was very marked. In addition, over half of second-generation brides and grooms with at least one parent born in New Zealand, Viet Nam, China, Philippines, India, Malaysia, Hong Kong or Poland, married someone from a different birthplace group other than a long-time Australian. For all of these birthplace groups the proportion doing so was much greater than for the corresponding group of overseas-born people.

http://www.entrenous.com.au/articles..._australia.pdf