Genocide/Expulsion

[Foot]

Genocide is "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

That, which you mention, is more commonly known as assimilation. However, the exact definition is not important. Atilius was no doubt referring to Genocide as defined in the 1948 CCPCG. The assimilation of one culture by another (or rather the hybridisation, as there is not one event in history where one culture has completely assimilated another without changing itself in that region) will be present to some extent in game for those factions that did or we have decided were able to do so.

Foot

[Megas Methuselah]

The assimilation of one culture by another (or rather the hybridisation, as there is not one event in history where one culture has completely assimilated another without changing itself in that region) will be present to some extent in game for those factions that did or we have decided were able to do so.

Foot

That sounds real nice, mah man. Do you think you might be able to reveal whether that would be limited solely to the Romans?

[Blxz]

for those factions that did or we have decided were able to do so.

Foot

Sounds like more than just the romans, megas. Although i am interested in who it would be and how you would portray it ingame.

I suppose something like Baktria taking a small part of Indian culture into itself. Or the saka? Parthians would be a good choice for mixing cultures. Celts seemed to get on reasonably well with Greeks in their colonies, or would you do it as greeks with celts, or maybe both ways? Hmm, possibilities are endless.

[Ca Putt]

pew as long as we won't see any black clad Pretorians on three wheeled Chariots killing civilians I'm happy.

[moonburn]

my celtic history might be a bit blury bit the celts did this all the time according to what i read when the bituriges where rulling gaul they would grab the excess population of the diferent tribes and sent them out looking for new lands and displacing the old people further away

wich was what happened to the ligurians and to some extent to the iberians that continously got displaced by new migrating celts

that "assimilation" was made on the borders or new borders of these new celtic lands

megas alexandros destroyed several people almost exterminating them when they proven hard to rulle (or it says so in the description of several eastern mercenary´s that they where hunted and destroyed in such great numbers that they became a minority in their own lands)

ofc this can/should be used in lands where the there´s setled people but in desert areas and the steppes this shouldn´t be able to be done considering that the steppe people would run before they where allowed to be butchered or enslaved

[Dunadd]

Spartans never attempted to exterminate the helots: that would have undermined their economical and social arrangements. They just terrorized them.

They culled them annually in large numbers in order to make sure they didnt outnumber Spartan citizens enough that they could revolt and overthrow them. In the long run that and their bizarre rules on sex and marriage (making both extremely difficult for Spartans) and leaving 'weak' babies on the mountainside to die resulted in their manpower collapsing. So they destroyed their own military power by the rigid application of the same rules that created it in the first place and by refusing the helots equality until it was too late.

They had a revolution in which slavery was abolished eventually, but it was too late by then.

[Subotan]

pew as long as we won't see any black clad Pretorians on three wheeled Chariots killing civilians I'm happy.

Triscythles?

[Cambyses]

Mass enslavement was effecively genocide in the ancient world IMO. It would have completely destroyed the people as a cultural force and one or two generations later any memories would have effectively been extinguished completely. That is with families split up and sent all over Europe, more basic slaves having no education / contact with people from their own cultural background. Would they have even spoke their parents' language?

My memory is a little rusty. Didnt Marius effectively commit genocide against the Cimbri and Teutones? I appreciate these were somewhat different circumstances...

[Phalanx300]

Mass enslavement was effecively genocide in the ancient world IMO. It would have completely destroyed the people as a cultural force and one or two generations later any memories would have effectively been extinguished completely. That is with families split up and sent all over Europe, more basic slaves having no education / contact with people from their own cultural background. Would they have even spoke their parents' language?

My memory is a little rusty. Didnt Marius effectively commit genocide against the Cimbri and Teutones? I appreciate these were somewhat different circumstances...

Not in all cases, the Messenian Helots kept feeling Messenian the entire time they were enslaved and eventually became free Messenians again when the Thebans defeated the Spartans.

I think he killed many of them and enslaved the rest (those who didn't kill themselves like the Cimbri mothers killing themselves and their children).

[Azathoth]

Not in all cases, the Messenian Helots kept feeling Messenian the entire time they were enslaved and eventually became free Messenians again when the Thebans defeated the Spartans.

Well, like Cambyses said, slaves that were scattered throughout the conquerors' empire would lose their cultural identity, but the Messenian helots lived together in family units on pretty much the same land for centuries.

[artavazd]

Genocide is "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

That, which you mention, is more commonly known as assimilation. However, the exact definition is not important. Atilius was no doubt referring to Genocide as defined in the 1948 CCPCG. The assimilation of one culture by another (or rather the hybridisation, as there is not one event in history where one culture has completely assimilated another without changing itself in that region) will be present to some extent in game for those factions that did or we have decided were able to do so.

Foot

So would the concept of the Mameluks, and Jannisaries be considered acts of genocide? They were children forcibly transerred from one group to the other.

[Foot]

So would the concept of the Mameluks, and Jannisaries be considered acts of genocide? They were children forcibly transerred from one group to the other.

I'm neither a lawyer or knowledgeable in those areas, however, if that is the case current UN law may view those events as genocide. However, it is important to note that we cannot apply the standards of today to those of yesterday when describing history. The historians role is primarily descriptive, not nominative.

Foot

[artavazd]

I'm neither a lawyer or knowledgeable in those areas, however, if that is the case current UN law may view those events as genocide. However, it is important to note that we cannot apply the standards of today to those of yesterday when describing history. The historians role is primarily descriptive, not nominative.

Foot

Yes you are right. However sometimes habits seen in history dont fade out

But yes under UN law the concepts of Mameluks and Jannisaries would be considered Genocide. It was just interesting, because I did not know the " forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." was part of the defenition for Genocide.

[Megas Methuselah]

Yeah, it's a part of cultural genocide. Happens all the time.