Greek Hoplite Phalanx?

[Knight of Ne]

Could somebody help me justify the greek hoplite and heavy hoplite phalanxes. I really like the look of the units but i can never see any place for them in my armies. What do they do or have that makes them better at anything. As far as i can tell Classical hoplites are better at holding a defensive line, and spearmen seem better equipped as a fighting unit (i.e. javelins and better defense). So what exactly do they do that makes them worth the effort of using them?

Thanks,
Knight of Ne

[antisocialmunky]

THorakitai Hoplitai have AP swords.

[Knight of Ne]

Oh cool i never new that, but what about Iphikratous Hoplitai. Do they also have the ap swords? If so that would change how i use them entirely.

Thanks,
Knight of Ne

[Ludens]

No, they do not. They are somewhat redundant in the current version of EB. They used to be phalanx units, but it was deemed ahistorical to have them as unwieldy as Macedonian phalanxes, so they were turned into normal hoplites. I haven't really found a use for them either.

[Raygereio]

Unmodded I find them to be no more then glorified spearmen - heavily armoured spearmen, but nothing special.

I'm quite happy with TWFanatic's phalanxmod; the most important change in it, is that it gives hoplite units more of a 'push', which makes them pretty effective when used right.
The download link in that thread is down; but the nescesary changes are posted, so you can easily mod it in yourself.

[Knight of Ne]

Its a shame that their a bit of a useless unit, they look so good.
Thanks for your replies and i just might give that mod a go.

Thanks,
Knight of Ne

[antisocialmunky]

Hoplites need pushing power. Really, I would be a happy man or woman if that were to happen in EBII. Hoplites in spearwall that actually push...

[chenkai11]

Historically, how did Greeks used this unit anyway? A replacement for all classical hoplites?

You can simulate hoplites pushing in EB1.2 by adding a radius of 0.2 in EDU, works almost similar to shieldwall ability.

[m0r1d1n]

Hoplites need pushing power. Really, I would be a happy man or woman if that were to happen in EBII. Hoplites in spearwall that actually push...

second that..as for howto use them...thorakitai are cool killing units and thorakitai hoplitai great in holding high pressure situations, they have awsm morale...personally whenever i go with KH i find classical hoplites real good in holding line(defensive) unless flanked...deep defense against ball assault

[Kevin]

I find them bad, they spread out too much when you use them and it's not really a "phalanx" or a shieldwall anymore

[m0r1d1n]

shieldwall would a most welcome change in EB II...the current shieldwall hoplitai in BI are buggy IMO

[Dutchhoplite]

No, they do not. They are somewhat redundant in the current version of EB. They used to be phalanx units, but it was deemed ahistorical to have them as unwieldy as Macedonian phalanxes, so they were turned into normal hoplites. I haven't really found a use for them either.

I gave them the role of marines

[Ca Putt]

yeah they often explode into the enemy without actually losig any troops :D In a test battle it made a unit of armenian spearmen defeat a unit of pezhetairoi(from the front!!!!!) tho they lost 150 men :(

I like to play KH but every time one of my reformist Athenians trains a unit of Iph-hoplites they are totally eliminated once they are needed :( whereas the Thureophoroi are a constant part of most of my armies that are not assembled by a spartan ;)
but to be honest I don't really like the looks of both hoplite phalanx units.
sometimes (when money is not an issue) I train a unit of Thorakitei hoplitai which do their stuff but I always prefered Epilektoi and ragtag hillbilly axemen.

tho I had a unit of mercenary Iph-hoplites I bought on the balears(or was it corsim?) which held their ground very well and killed a lot of lusotan romanoi and Karthastim troops and defended the weaker parts of this western mediterranean task force(unfortunately not their lord who fell in the first battle after buying them XD) maybe those more mobile hoplites generally fare better against western factions whereas classicals are more usefull in the east. or they just stood out because of the absence of proper hoplites^^

[Cute Wolf]

Hoplitai are really great line troops, as they won't fail you if you used them right... but about those hoplite Phalanx....

Well, actually they have their use on............




I don't know much... I train some of them just purely for amusement in RP

[Ludens]

Historically, how did Greeks used this unit anyway? A replacement for all classical hoplites?

That's hard to say. We know little of the developments in hoplite warfare following the Peloponnesian war. Iphicrates apparently instituted some changes in the way hoplites were equiped, but how far-reaching they were (and whether they applied to all hoplites or just marines) we don't know. Iphicratean hoplites seem intended as a hybrid of classical hoplites and the more mobile thureophoroi, but the TW engine is not good at simulating flexibility, so classical hoplites do just as well. Certainly, the classical hoplite didn't go out entirely of fashion until the Romans convincingly proved the superiority of the thureophoroi doctrine.

[antisocialmunky]

Actually, I think I have stumbled onto a solution to Iphs and Hoplite Pushing. The easier way would be to give hoplites a faster attack animation, higher attack, and a lower lethality. That way it knocks units down which also pushes them back and allows the hoplite to move forward. if you give regular hoplites their guard mode density when they attack, that would work quite well to show the push of the dense hoplite phalanx.

Now for Iphs, one can reasonable assume, that like the phalangites of Makedon, the Iph. Hoplites increased their standoff range by adopting a longer weapon. That is why they got away with lighter equipment. Perhaps the best representation of them if you used the above system is to make it so they have a lower lethality than regular hoplites but have higher engagement range(like German Pikes) so they are equally good and can move around the battlefield much quicker due to their lighter equipment. Hoplites on the other hand have a higher lethality and lower range so they can brute force push their way through the enemy instead of doing some sort of pseudo macedonian phalanx thing.

Similar results but the Classicals work better in the main line and the Iphs work better as a maneuvering unit.

[m0r1d1n]

Actually, I think I have stumbled onto a solution to Iphs and Hoplite Pushing. The easier way would be to give hoplites a faster attack animation, higher attack, and a lower lethality.
Perhaps the best representation of them if you used the above system is to make it so they have a lower lethality than regular hoplites but have higher engagement range(like German Pikes) so they are equally good and can move around the battlefield much quicker due to their lighter equipment.

Similar results but the Classicals work better in the main line and the Iphs work better as a maneuvering unit.

Is it possible to do this myself by alterin the EDU??

[DaciaJC]

You can certainly modify attack and lethality values in the EDU. As for animation attack speeds and weapons length... my guess is that those have to do with the models, but that's as much as I can tell you.

[m0r1d1n]

thanks..i guess we play them as they are for now(god enough) and wait for EB2