Question about the Mori Gaesum and Appea Gaedotos

**Kevin** · 09-13-2009, 04:55

Well, this actually regards units that are labeled as phalanx or have to fight in a close formation but these are the two units that concern me in my Romani Campaign. For them to actually use a phalanx, do they have to be in guard mode at all times? Is it better for them to use guard mode or just let them spread out and fight? What are the benefits of using and not using guard mode?

**Aemilius Paulus** · 09-13-2009, 05:50

Really, you should have first done a forum search. But regardless of this, I am always glad to help

. Here, I will quote myself:

Originally posted by: Aemilius Paulus

...Guard mode will only work if you are trying to hold the line. Your soldiers will barely fatigue, if at all, and their defence is better due to the adherence to the formation, and all soldiers facing the enemy directly, but if you attack a unit, switch the guard mode off. Not to mention various bugs happen when attacking in guard mode, where only some soldiers fight, but not all.

On the wall, guard mode will slaughter your men. I once had Hastati holding the walls of Ippone against kart-Hadastim, with Numidian skirmisher unit wiping out 8 men (large Unit Size) before I realised I forgot to turn the guard mode off. Once I did, the Hastati slaughtered the skirmishers without a single casualty. Note the skirmishers were coming from the ladders, right in front of Hastati.

In guard mode, soldiers do not move to attack the enemy. Most soldiers simply stay in their place and strike back if the enemy is in range. This can prove crucial if the enemy has long overhand spears and you have shortswords. The Hoplitai Haploi, the levy hoplites, can annihilate Hastati this way. In general, even when defending, sword units should be put off the guard mode.

Whenever surrounding a unit, such as attacking form flanks or the rear, you should have guard mode off, even if it is spearmen. Any time you actually right click an enemy unit (to attack), it is best to turn off guard mode for best results, even if you have phalanx spearmen. But the long spears are best used in defence, and a good way to do that is to advance in guard mode close enough to the enemy until they attack your Greek phalanx, without you actually clicking the right mouse button to attack.

Spear unit are another matter. Mostly the spear units with long spears should be put on the guard mode. This does not apply to the Celtic (for example) spear units, who have short underhand thrusting spears. For them, guard mode is best left off, although it is also somewhat acceptable to leave it on. Going back to the units with long spears, Triarii, Hoplitai, Hoplitai Haploi, and such do the best in a tight formation on guard mode. In such formation, they suffer the least casualties while being just as effective due to their ultra-long spears. They do especially well in guard mode against other sword units, who must come very close to attack with swords, while even the second row of Triarii can jab at them. Also, spearmen need to keep their cohesion.

I suggest you turn off the guard mode for Mori Gaesum and Appea Gaedotos. But for any other phalanx spearmen, the guard mode MUST be turned on for maximum efficiency.

**Kevin** · 09-13-2009, 06:21

Hah that was helpful, thanks

but isn't it kind of unrealistic to have them spread out?

**Kevin** · 09-13-2009, 06:58

Now that I've thought about it...

NOBODY ANSWER THAT

**Phalanx300** · 09-13-2009, 14:04

Guard mode is only good if you intend to let your units just stand and receive a charge, any other way to use it is going to mean that non guard mode is better.

**A Terribly Harmful Name** · 09-13-2009, 18:29

I suggest you turn off the guard mode for Mori Gaesum and Appea Gaedotos. But for any other phalanx spearmen, the guard mode MUST be turned on for maximum efficiency.

Ehrm no. In fact, Appea Gaedotos and Mori Gaesum are defensive units per excellence with longspears that should be left all the time in Guard Mode to hold the enemy, because that's their main strength. One unit of Appea Gaedotos can last forever in melee if the enemy is attacking from the front and they are braced for it.

**Aemilius Paulus** · 09-13-2009, 19:22

Originally Posted by A Terribly Harmful Name

with longspears that should be left ...

What longspears? They have the normal short, underhand, thrusting Celtic spears. Guard mode does not make nearly as much difference for them as it does for real phalanx units.

**A Terribly Harmful Name** · 09-13-2009, 19:28

What longspears? They have the normal short, underhand, thrusting Celtic spears. Guard mode does not make nearly as much difference for them as it does for real phalanx units.

You call the Appea Gaedotos' spear "short"

?

Anyway I don't see "any" problem with leaving even Lugoae in Guard Mode. In fact Lugoae fare much better when they stick together and try to poke the enemy behind their shields. You're overestimating "reach" for "endurance", which is the best thing we should expect from an unit that is there to hold the enemy instead of taking it apart. Spears are a defensive weapon per excellence, and thus best suited for this than for a rear end assault.

**Aemilius Paulus** · 09-13-2009, 19:45

Originally Posted by A Terribly Harmful Name

You call the Appea Gaedotos' spear "short"

?

I do not remember that unit as well as I do the More Gaesum, who definitely have short spears. In any case, the Alpine Phalanx lack the true phalanx spears as those of the Triarii, Hoplitai, Liby-Phoenicians, Hoplitai Haploi, etc.

Originally Posted by A Terribly Harmful Name

Anyway I don't see "any" problem with leaving even Lugoae in Guard Mode. In fact Lugoae fare much better when they stick together and try to poke the enemy behind their shields. You're overestimating "reach" for "endurance", which is the best thing we should expect from an unit that is there to hold the enemy instead of taking it apart. Spears are a defensive weapon per excellence, and thus best suited for this than for a rear end assault.

1. Stop repeating "par excellence" as it is the only word of such calibre you know of.
2. This is RTW engine we are speaking of, not real life. Your post put forward assertions more reminiscent of something other than a video game. RTW is not as complex as your description suggests.

**bobbin** · 09-13-2009, 19:53

The main problem with leaving them in guard mode is that the soldiers switch to swords when an enemy gets close and won't use their spears. That said i usually leave them in guard mode as it helps keep the cohesion of my battle line.

**antisocialmunky** · 09-13-2009, 20:04

Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

What longspears? They have the normal short, underhand, thrusting Celtic spears. Guard mode does not make nearly as much difference for them as it does for real phalanx units.

They have long and manly spears.

Put them in guard mode but remember that's its terribly for attacking and take if off when you do.

**Aemilius Paulus** · 09-13-2009, 20:19

Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

They have long and manly spears.

I am sorry, only the Roman Principes and Iberian Scutari spears are manly. Have you seen the size of the spearheads? It is fluffing astonishing - those things are broadswords on sticks!

**antisocialmunky** · 09-13-2009, 20:21

Yeah, some of the Iberian units have spears of strange looking proportions...

**A Terribly Harmful Name** · 09-13-2009, 20:53

1. Stop repeating "par excellence" as it is the only word of such calibre you know of.

Oui, je suis quelque d'un ignorant imparfait, mais tous les humains sont imparfaits

.

2. This is RTW engine we are speaking of, not real life. Your post put forward assertions more reminiscent of something other than a video game. RTW is not as complex as your description suggests.

One time you're saying I'm just speculating without sources, the next you say "I'm too complex!". Damn AP

. Stop hiding behind a cloud of words.

I do not remember that unit as well as I do the More Gaesum, who definitely have short spears. In any case, the Alpine Phalanx lack the true phalanx spears as those of the Triarii, Hoplitai, Liby-Phoenicians, Hoplitai Haploi, etc.

Huh? Mori Gaesum have spears of the size of Getikoi Stratiotai. Whatcha talking about?

**Tuuvi** · 09-16-2009, 02:35

There's been so much hostility on this forum lately...

In my Epeiros campaign I have used classical hoplites in almost every battle and in my recent war against the Romans I have used mori gaesum, both with guard mode on. Mori gaesum don't seem to be as effective as hoplites in guard mode however I think that guard mode is best suited for those units because they are a phalanx type unit. My advice to you would be try them with both guard mode on and guard mode off and see which works best for you.

**DaciaJC** · 09-16-2009, 02:45

I can assure you that it's all in jest. What, actual hatred on the .Org? It doesn't bear contemplation.

**Kikaz** · 09-16-2009, 03:15

Originally Posted by Lignator

There's been so much hostility on this forum lately...

In my Epeiros campaign I have used classical hoplites in almost every battle and in my recent war against the Romans I have used mori gaesum, both with guard mode on. Mori gaesum don't seem to be as effective as hoplites in guard mode however I think that guard mode is best suited for those units because they are a phalanx type unit. My advice to you would be try them with both guard mode on and guard mode off and see which works best for you.

It's all about the situation. If they are being used as line infantry, than they should definitely have guard mode on; unless there is an opportunity to "make a sandwich," but even then you could still leave them in guard mode with little detriment. If assaulting with them, keep guard mode on and walk them towards the enemy until they are within striking range, and if they're in a gap especially, turn off guard mode and they'll open the gap and whip out the swords or axes (after ALT clicking I believe)

Mori Gaesum and Appea Gaedotos are extremely versatile, with their high lethality swords or AP axes it seems more so than hoplites, especially if used properly. They're definitely some of my favorites.

**Ca Putt** · 09-16-2009, 10:19

as sweboz I use them in guard mode as then they can hold of enemies almost as good as hoplites whilst I can flank the enemy or defeat one unit to gain the extra comfort of a unengaged melee unit. I presume they are even more versitaile for gauls as their line troops are not as good line holders as dugunthiz.

when I play as a southern invader I mostly use them more agressively as I am likely to have hoplites in my lines which are far better line holders but worse at attacking.

**Andronikos** · 09-16-2009, 19:03

Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

I am sorry, only the Roman Principes and Iberian Scutari spears are manly. Have you seen the size of the spearheads? It is fluffing astonishing - those things are broadswords on sticks!

And TAB too. But I have never thought about those spears in falic manner. It was more spade for me.

**athanaric** · 09-16-2009, 19:20

Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

I am sorry, only the Roman Principes and Iberian Scutari spears are manly. Have you seen the size of the spearheads? It is fluffing astonishing - those things are broadswords on sticks!

Actually, the Speudogordoz have the biggest spearheads. Just so you know...

**Kikaz** · 09-16-2009, 20:33

Originally Posted by athanaric

Actually, the Speudogordoz have the biggest spearheads. Just so you know...

Dugundhiz are, I believe, second...

**Ca Putt** · 09-16-2009, 21:36

Dugunthiz should have bigger spearheads to represent Germanic manhood ?

**Kevin** · 09-19-2009, 02:50

Hm, is it possible to make the AI stop using guard mode on the Alex.exe? I know this has probably asked a lot, but I can't seem to be able to search a conclusion. I hate when the AI puts hoplites or phalanxes on guard mode, make them either turn perpendicular to my troops or makes the front of phalanxes unrealistically unbreakable.

**Ludens** · 09-19-2009, 11:37

Guard mode is determined by the formation files, I believe. Search for modding formations at the R:TW modding fora, and you will find how to switch it of. Remember you need to edit the AI formation files, not the player's.