The Historical Armies Thread

[IrishHitman]

Due to the continued success of multiplayer games on EB, I have decided to create this thread so that we can post a series of multiplayer armies based on historical sources. I also would like everyone else to post some as well.

Hopefully we can stage massive hypothetical battles if people are willing.

Here's the first one to get us started.

Army of Alexander the Great, Spring 334 BCE, Start of the Persian Campaign:
Source: J.R. Hamilton's introduction in Aubrey de Sélincourt's translation of The Campaigns of Alexander.
Scale: Approx 1 Unit/1,000 troops except where otherwise stated.

I will place quotes/paraphrasing of what my sources specifically say, but you do not have to do that.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Player 1: Makedonia:
2 x Companion Cavalry ("...originally 1,800 troopers")
2 x Thessalian Cavalry ("the Thessalian cavalry, also 1,800 strong at the start of the expedition")
1 x Hellenic Medium Cavalry ("The Greek Allies furnished 600 horsemen")
1 x Thracian Prodromoi ("... and the remaining 900 were made up of Thracians, Paeonians and "Scouts" (Prodromoi) who were also called "Lancers" (Sarissophoroi)...)
3 x Hypaspists ("These were an élite corps, consisting of a Royal battalion (agema) and two other battalions, each of approximately 1,000 men")
1 x Agrianian Assault Infantry ("The outstanding unit among the light troops was the Agrianians, 1,000 strong")

Player 2: Makedonia:
9 x Pezhetairoi (9,000 "Foot Companions")
3 x Thracian Peltasts (3,000 of 7,000 "Thracian and Illyrian light troops armed with javelins")
4 x Peltasts (4,000 of 7,000 "Thracian and Illyrian light troops armed with javelins")

Player 3: Koinon Hellenon (representing the League of Corinth allied infantry and Greek mercs):
7 x Classical Hoplites ("7,000 Heavy Infantry")
5 x Mercenary Classical Hoplites ("while 5,000 Greeks served as mercenaries")
1 x Cretan Archers ("Two bodies of archers from Crete and Macedonia respectively")
1 x Toxotai ("Two bodies of archers from Crete and Macedonia respectively")

[dejan07]

I like your choice IrishHitman, unfortunately we don't have Persians.

If you are interested i have many historical army lists in my archive from my wargaming experience

[IrishHitman]

I like your choice IrishHitman, unfortunately we don't have Persians.

If you are interested i have many historical army lists in my archive from my wargaming experience

The Persians can be easily simulated as the Successors adopted many of the Persian units in their armies....

Besides, it's not only the Persians that we can test the Grand Armée on...

I'd like to have a go at Julius Caesar.

[antisocialmunky]

I was going to do a series of games based on Alexander's campaigns in glorious 3vs3 or 3vs4.

[mountaingoat]

sign me up for this , can someone post .. lets say a getai vs rome scenario?

[fleaza]

nobody cares about the getai, they were nobodys in history.

alexander the great on the other hand, mattered.

[kekailoa]

nobody cares about the getai, they were nobodys in history.

alexander the great on the other hand, mattered.

Hmmm, a little harsh, one would say? I think making statements like these lead to conflict and arguments between members. So I wouldn't say things like this.

Anyway, what about Vercingetorix's army and perhaps the battle for Gaul? Such as the Helvetii armies, or the Belgians?

[A Very Super Market]

Just a troll. Ignore him.


The Persians were a multi-ethnic empire anyways, and they used quite a bit of Greek mercs against Alexander as well. Nothing too hard to portray, but you'll have trouble with the immortals.

[Apázlinemjó]

Just a troll. Ignore him.


The Persians were a multi-ethnic empire anyways, and they used quite a bit of Greek mercs against Alexander as well. Nothing too hard to portray, but you'll have trouble with the immortals.

The Persian Archer-Spearmen are similar to them, aren't they?

[mountaingoat]

nobody cares about the getai, they were nobodys in history.

lol


back on topic .. i think the more scenarios the better , 4v4 setups would be awesome ...

[spiritusdilutus]

That`s a swell idea Hitman! I was always thinking of doing our own custom historical battle with recreated historical armies.

Nothing beats a good game with pre-set and arranged troops, tactical efficiency is required to the max at that point.

[jazstl]

Yes, Alexander mattred, sometimes too much, so the ancient writers dubbled the enemy numbers...

[antisocialmunky]

You guys can play the EB historical battles online though I rather do our own with more men and hten fraps it.

[IrishHitman]

Gentlemen, Alexander vs. Darius requires.... demands.... a 5v3.
Mainly because I can fully represent the 100,000 troops that were most likely fielded at Issus and Gaugamela. That said, the following army will be less accurate due to the problem with accurate sources on the size and composition of Darius' armies.

Note: Hellenic Native Spearmen and Eastern Skirmishers are the closest thing to the lightly armed Persian infantry.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Army of Darius III, November 333 BCE (Issus):
Source: Various (Wikipedia linked books basically).
Scale: Approx 1 Unit/1,000 troops except where otherwise stated.

Player 1: Arche Seleukeia
1 x Scythed Chariot (Darius himself, after all, what would Issus be if Darius didn't chicken out?)
3 x Persian Heavy Cavalry
5 x Medium Eastern Cavalry
3 x Median Medium Cavalry
4 x Hellenic Native Spearmen
4 x Eastern Skirmishers

Player 2: Hayasdan
10 x Armenian Spearmen
10 x Persian Hoplites (The Immortals)

Player 3: Ptolemaioi
10 x Hellenic Native Spearmen
5 x Hellenic Skirmishers
5 x Native Egyptian Infantry

Player 4: Pontus:
10 x Eastern Skirmishers
10 x Hoplitai (Greek Mercenaries)

Player 5: Arche Seleukeia
10 x Eastern Axemen
10 x Hellenic Native Spearmen

[Azathoth]

No nomads?

[Mr Polska]

Gentlemen, Alexander vs. Darius requires.... demands.... a 5v3.
Mainly because I can fully represent the 100,000 troops that were most likely fielded at Issus and Gaugamela. That said, the following army will be less accurate due to the problem with accurate sources on the size and composition of Darius' armies.

Note: Hellenic Native Spearmen and Eastern Skirmishers are the closest thing to the lightly armed Persian infantry.

What about the Gund-i-Nizagan?

[antisocialmunky]

What about the Gund-i-Nizagan?

They are more photogenic.

We should use as many different types of hordes of spearmans. If you really want to do this, you might want to PM TPC.

[IrishHitman]

No nomads?

Nomads were too far off to take part in the Battle of Issus.

Darius' Gaugamela army would have much more of those.

[seienchin]

Due to the continued success of multiplayer games on EB, I have decided to create this thread so that we can post a series of multiplayer armies based on historical sources. I also would like everyone else to post some as well.

Hopefully we can stage massive hypothetical battles if people are willing.

Here's the first one to get us started.

Army of Alexander the Great, Spring 334 BCE, Start of the Persian Campaign:
Source: J.R. Hamilton's introduction in Aubrey de Sélincourt's translation of The Campaigns of Alexander.
Scale: Approx 1 Unit/1,000 troops except where otherwise stated.

I will place quotes/paraphrasing of what my sources specifically say, but you do not have to do that.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Player 1: Makedonia:
2 x Companion Cavalry ("...originally 1,800 troopers")
2 x Thessalian Cavalry ("the Thessalian cavalry, also 1,800 strong at the start of the expedition")
1 x Hellenic Medium Cavalry ("The Greek Allies furnished 600 horsemen")
1 x Thracian Prodromoi ("... and the remaining 900 were made up of Thracians, Paeonians and "Scouts" (Prodromoi) who were also called "Lancers" (Sarissophoroi)...)
3 x Hypaspists ("These were an élite corps, consisting of a Royal battalion (agema) and two other battalions, each of approximately 1,000 men")
1 x Agrianian Assault Infantry ("The outstanding unit among the light troops was the Agrianians, 1,000 strong")

Player 2: Makedonia:
9 x Pezhetairoi (9,000 "Foot Companions")
3 x Thracian Peltasts (3,000 of 7,000 "Thracian and Illyrian light troops armed with javelins")
4 x Peltasts (4,000 of 7,000 "Thracian and Illyrian light troops armed with javelins")

Player 3: Koinon Hellenon (representing the League of Corinth allied infantry and Greek mercs):
7 x Classical Hoplites ("7,000 Heavy Infantry")
5 x Mercenary Classical Hoplites ("while 5,000 Greeks served as mercenaries")
1 x Cretan Archers ("Two bodies of archers from Crete and Macedonia respectively")
1 x Toxotai ("Two bodies of archers from Crete and Macedonia respectively")

Nice list. :)
But you are implying Alexander had more Hoplites than Phalangitai?
Do you have any sources for that?

[IrishHitman]

Nice list. :)
But you are implying Alexander had more Hoplites than Phalangitai?
Do you have any sources for that?

J.R. Hamilton's introduction in Aubrey de Sélincourt's translation of The Campaigns of Alexander

According to J R Hamilton's sources, at the start of Alexander's campaign, yes.
Mainly due to the large Greek allied contingent and the forces he left behind in Macedonia.

The figures are based on Diodorus' figures which agree with Arrian's (and therefore, Ptolemy's), and can be taken as correct for the most part..

[Azathoth]

Nomads were too far off to take part in the Battle of Issus.

Darius' Gaugamela army would have much more of those.

Sorry, thought one of those was for Gaugamela.

[IrishHitman]

Sorry, thought one of those was for Gaugamela.

I'll be making a Gaugamela model for both armies, don't worry.

[IrishHitman]

I just tested the Hellenic Native Spearmen, they rout and rally pretty accurately along the lines of what various sources say they did.

i.e. without a leader, they're going to crumble eventually.

[Azathoth]

And no chevrons/upgrades, right?

[IrishHitman]

And no chevrons/upgrades, right?

Yes, though I may add some if certain units do not perform as well as sources indicate they did.

[mountaingoat]

can we form a group or something so we can get this going?

[IrishHitman]

can we form a group or something so we can get this going?

Well, we only have two armies so far.

The rest of you, get working!

[m0r1d1n]

awsm idea Irish...
i would love to take part in any such a recreation..here's a battle i got some stats for...from wikipedia

The Battle of Sellasia - 222 BC between the armies of Antigonus III Doson, King of Macedonia, and Cleomenes III, King of Sparta. (always been interested in that)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cleomenes had taken up a strong position, placing his army across a road that followed a river running between two hills, Olympus and Eva.
His army of 20,000 infantrymen was composed of Spartan hoplites, possibly Spartan pikemen (according to Plutarch, Cleomenes had armed 2.000 Lacedaemonians in the Macedonian way), perioeci, mercenaries and about 650 cavalry. The Spartan phalanx, under the personal command of Cleomenes, made up the right wing of the battle line and was positioned on the hilltop of Olympus near Sellasia. This force was supported by a body of light infantry mercenaries. The allied troops as well as the perioeci phalanx were led by Cleomenes' brother, Eucleidas. These forces made up the left wing of Cleomenes' battle line and were positioned on Evas. The center occupied the valley and road and was made up of Spartan cavalry, supported by mercenaries. Cleomenes probably hoped that the higher tactical position his army enjoyed would compensate for his numerical inferiority. To be sure, he ordered a ditch dug and a palisade raised all along the front line.

Antigonus, for his part, arrived on the scene with a superior force of around 30,000 men, including the allied forces of the Achaean League. For the first time since the beginning of the 3rd century BC, the Macedonians arrayed against the Spartans a true national army and not one composed of mercenaries.
Antigonous alone had with him 10,000 pikemen, 3.000 peltasts and 300 horse from Macedonia as well as 1.000 Agrianes, 1.600 Illyrians, 1.000 Gaul and 3.000 unidentified mercenary foot and 300 horse. The allies provided him with further important contingents, the Achaeans with 3.000 foot and 300 horse, the Boeotians with 2.000 foot and 200 horse, the Acarnanians with 1.000 foot and 50 horse, the Hepirotes with 1.000 foot and 50 horse. According to Plutarch, out of 6.000 Spartans, only 2 survived, the others preferring honorable death to disgrace. Cleomenes fled to Alexandria where he stayed until his death.

so from spartans, we have
4x spartiates
2x greek phalanx
14x hoplites, mercs and skirmishers( say 5 : 5 : 4)
1 x cav (xystophoroi)

and for maks,

10 x phalangites
3 x peltasts
1 x companions
1 x agrianes
1 to 2 x illirian mercs
1 x celtic inf.
10 x merc hoplitai and skirmish (say 5 : 5)
1 x merc cavalry (say medium...prodromoi)


what say....

[Azathoth]

Maybe regular Hoplitai should be used instead of the Spartan hoplite unit? There must have been only a few hundred full Spartans by that time, though I guess even with 4 EB Spartan phalanxes that army would be a pushover for the Mak player, so keeping them in the name of balance is reasonable.

[Andronikos]

4xSpartans = 2xArgyraspides so it is the same number of elites if two of 10 makedonian phalangites would be elite.