America - The Freest Country?

[jabarto]

There was some discussion of this in the healthcare thread. One poster stated that it would be to find a country more free than the U.S., a few others sought ot quantify "freedom", etc. I din't think much of it, but I saw this post on SA that made me give it another thought:

American Exceptionalism is one of the least examined yet most powerful forces in an American's worldview. We are taught from childhood that the US is the greatest nation on Earth, that we alone cherish liberty, that we have the best standard of living. It is so pervasive and insidious, from political speeches to nationalistic anthems in popular music, that it can be impossible to notice without some external standard for contrast, but for most people it manifests as an unexplained consternation at any suggestion that something America (as a national gestalt) does is inferior or wrong.

Imagine for a second that you run across someone stating without irony, "Well, of course, Darwinists have put a stranglehold on free scientific discussion." Capture the feeling of baffled annoyance at how fundamentally wrong and ignorant that statement is. That's how an American feels when someone says, for example, "Well, of course, America's military enforces an imperial ambition." Even American leftists and liberals are normally only willing to admit that America's actions and policies are flawed in execution, but have good intentions. Witness how so much of the pro-UHC critique of healthcare in the US has an undercurrent of "We're being shamed by those other countries, how can we let America fall behind anyone?"

I have a feeling that when LF posters say "death to america"...if they're Americans, it's not so much because they really strongly oppose their country's policies and feel badly for/angry about the wrongs America has done (though they might), it's more because their country is not living up to the grandiose expectations they have been conditioned to believe are its rightful and natural condition. (Or maybe I'm just projecting.)

I, for one, am inclined to agree. This is plainly manifest in many of my friends, and even I was brought up to beleive that American freedom was absolutely uparalelled. I would contest, however, that Holland, Switzerland, and (especially) any Scandinavian country are more or less equatable with us in terms of personal freedom.

Also, as a side note, American exceptionalism is a large factor in the healthcare debate, too. So while I'm trying to keep this narrow in focus, it is difficult for me to do so without making at least some mention to that debate.

But I've rambled enough. What do you all think?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

There are two freedoms - freedom from the government, and freedom to do whatever you want. Or you could say freedom from and freedom to. America isn't perfect in either one of those, but I believe that America leads the world, or at least most of the world, in how they balance them. This, I believe, results in America being the world's most free nation, even though there are naturally imperfections.

[Beskar]

I reply to your other question where you can't think of a freer nation and I say Switzerland again.

Am I wrong?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Am I wrong?

Not necessarily. I just disagree, though Switzerland would be very high on the list, possibly tied.

[Papewaio]

Actually my main point was that it is very hard to use a nominative statement as a fact.

Freedom is personal and as such nominative. So to use a nominative statement as a quantitative fact is fraught with problems.

As for benchmarking freedoms look at lifestyle factors. Look at lifespan (which is a good litmus test for health both physical and mental), crime rates, prison population, equality of opportunity (economic, vote, legal), literacy, ease of education access and quality, class structure and others. Then for freedoms focus on what is the spirit of the law and what is in fact allowed. Most freedoms are in fact liberty (freedoms bounded by law) and some of these laws are a lot more strict in all nations then we realise.

For instance watch what happens to your house if you don't pay your rates. Many of us don't realise that real estate is more like long term leasing then absolute ownership. Just check out what can happen to a farmer if a gold seam is found 6 inches beneath the ground.

=][=

That and I don't think being healthy equals less freedom for oneself or society.

[LittleGrizzly]

Prison population is one thing I was thinking off.. America would be let down badly there..

Although technically isn't somewhere like Somalia the most free place on earth....

[Don Corleone]

I reply to your other question where you can't think of a freer nation and I say Switzerland again.

Am I wrong?

But they're not a real country. I have it on excellent authority that they're just a collection of Italian, French & German crimelords, forming a tax haven.

[Don Corleone]

I think Meneldil has the straightest shot so far. Very few and far between are the people that actually admit to this, but in general, "freedom" means freedom to do what I want and "freedom" to prevent you from doing what I don't want you to do.

[Lemur]

Very few and far between are the people that actually admit to this, but in general, "freedom" means freedom to do what I want and "freedom" to prevent you from doing what I don't want you to do.

Oh yeah? Well then, Mister Smartypants, what exactly did Mel Gibson die for?