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Thread: America - The Freest Country?
There was some discussion of this in the healthcare thread. One poster stated that it would be to find a country more free than the U.S., a few others sought ot quantify "freedom", etc. I din't think much of it, but I saw this post on SA that made me give it another thought:
I, for one, am inclined to agree. This is plainly manifest in many of my friends, and even I was brought up to beleive that American freedom was absolutely uparalelled. I would contest, however, that Holland, Switzerland, and (especially) any Scandinavian country are more or less equatable with us in terms of personal freedom.
Also, as a side note, American exceptionalism is a large factor in the healthcare debate, too. So while I'm trying to keep this narrow in focus, it is difficult for me to do so without making at least some mention to that debate.
But I've rambled enough. What do you all think?
I, for one, am inclined to agree. This is plainly manifest in many of my friends, and even I was brought up to beleive that American freedom was absolutely uparalelled. I would contest, however, that Holland, Switzerland, and (especially) any Scandinavian country are more or less equatable with us in terms of personal freedom.
Also, as a side note, American exceptionalism is a large factor in the healthcare debate, too. So while I'm trying to keep this narrow in focus, it is difficult for me to do so without making at least some mention to that debate.
But I've rambled enough. What do you all think?
There are two freedoms - freedom from the government, and freedom to do whatever you want. Or you could say freedom from and freedom to. America isn't perfect in either one of those, but I believe that America leads the world, or at least most of the world, in how they balance them. This, I believe, results in America being the world's most free nation, even though there are naturally imperfections.
I reply to your other question where you can't think of a freer nation and I say Switzerland again.
Am I wrong?
Am I wrong?
Originally Posted by Beskar:
Am I wrong?
Not necessarily. I just disagree, though Switzerland would be very high on the list, possibly tied.Am I wrong?
Actually my main point was that it is very hard to use a nominative statement as a fact.
Freedom is personal and as such nominative. So to use a nominative statement as a quantitative fact is fraught with problems.
As for benchmarking freedoms look at lifestyle factors. Look at lifespan (which is a good litmus test for health both physical and mental), crime rates, prison population, equality of opportunity (economic, vote, legal), literacy, ease of education access and quality, class structure and others. Then for freedoms focus on what is the spirit of the law and what is in fact allowed. Most freedoms are in fact liberty (freedoms bounded by law) and some of these laws are a lot more strict in all nations then we realise.
For instance watch what happens to your house if you don't pay your rates. Many of us don't realise that real estate is more like long term leasing then absolute ownership. Just check out what can happen to a farmer if a gold seam is found 6 inches beneath the ground.
=][=
That and I don't think being healthy equals less freedom for oneself or society.
Freedom is personal and as such nominative. So to use a nominative statement as a quantitative fact is fraught with problems.
As for benchmarking freedoms look at lifestyle factors. Look at lifespan (which is a good litmus test for health both physical and mental), crime rates, prison population, equality of opportunity (economic, vote, legal), literacy, ease of education access and quality, class structure and others. Then for freedoms focus on what is the spirit of the law and what is in fact allowed. Most freedoms are in fact liberty (freedoms bounded by law) and some of these laws are a lot more strict in all nations then we realise.
For instance watch what happens to your house if you don't pay your rates. Many of us don't realise that real estate is more like long term leasing then absolute ownership. Just check out what can happen to a farmer if a gold seam is found 6 inches beneath the ground.
=][=
That and I don't think being healthy equals less freedom for oneself or society.
Prison population is one thing I was thinking off.. America would be let down badly there..
Although technically isn't somewhere like Somalia the most free place on earth....
Although technically isn't somewhere like Somalia the most free place on earth....
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly:
Although technically isn't somewhere like Somalia the most free place on earth....
It isn't a good idea to confuse anarchy and liberty.Although technically isn't somewhere like Somalia the most free place on earth....
Yeah, I'd say our prison population is a pretty hard strike against us being the "freest." Not a knockout blow, but definitely a hit.
But in one area America is going from strength to strength—the incarceration of its population. America has less than 5% of the world’s people but almost 25% of its prisoners. It imprisons 756 people per 100,000 residents, a rate nearly five times the world average. About one in every 31 adults is either in prison or on parole. Black men have a one-in-three chance of being imprisoned at some point in their lives. “A Leviathan unmatched in human history”, is how Glenn Loury, professor of social studies at Brown University, characterises America’s prison system.
Conditions in the Leviathan’s belly can be brutal. More than 20% of inmates report that they have been sexually assaulted by guards or fellow inmates. Federal prisons are operating at more than 130% of capacity. A sixth of prisoners suffer from mental illness of one sort or another. There are four times as many mentally ill people in prison as in mental hospitals.
As well as being brutal, prisons are ineffective. They may keep offenders off the streets, but they fail to discourage them from offending. Two-thirds of ex-prisoners are re-arrested within three years of being released. The punishment extends to prisoners’ families, too. America’s 1.7m “prison orphans” are six times more likely than their peers to end up in prison themselves. The punishment also sometimes continues after prisoners are released. America is one of only a handful of countries that bar prisoners from voting, and in some states that ban is lifelong: 2% of American adults and 14% of black men are disfranchised because of criminal convictions.
Conditions in the Leviathan’s belly can be brutal. More than 20% of inmates report that they have been sexually assaulted by guards or fellow inmates. Federal prisons are operating at more than 130% of capacity. A sixth of prisoners suffer from mental illness of one sort or another. There are four times as many mentally ill people in prison as in mental hospitals.
As well as being brutal, prisons are ineffective. They may keep offenders off the streets, but they fail to discourage them from offending. Two-thirds of ex-prisoners are re-arrested within three years of being released. The punishment extends to prisoners’ families, too. America’s 1.7m “prison orphans” are six times more likely than their peers to end up in prison themselves. The punishment also sometimes continues after prisoners are released. America is one of only a handful of countries that bar prisoners from voting, and in some states that ban is lifelong: 2% of American adults and 14% of black men are disfranchised because of criminal convictions.
That is the difference between America and the European States. While American culture values Personal independence over Social Interdependence, Europe does quite the contrary. Bringing the Healthcare example, if you are out of healthcare insurance in America, for whatever reason (Ranging from being so ill stricken that a healthcare insurance's price is astronomical to simply not caring) you're on your own. People don't give a 
if you die due to healthcare insurance complications. It was your problem. In Europe, you get treated free (Or partially free, paying only a small fee). Likewise if you are in a difficult or handicapped position, in America you can't count on governmental aid to help reduce the gap of your limitations to others (For instance, if you're middle-aged in the USA but you can't find a job in your area of expertise as you're too old, you can't count on the assistence of the government.) While in Europe, you usually find tax bonuses and other assorted incentives for companies to employ the more older unemployed who have a much greater risk of long-term unemployment, which is one of the major causes for concern in an economy. Thus, you see that there is Social Interdependence in Europe, where the government intervenes by giving incentives for the society as a whole to do the right thing.
I usually see a good example for European Socialism: Its like the Jedi Persuasion. The government attempts to encourage society to adopt a certain "stance" in accord with the policy conducted in the government. Of course companies aren't forced to take the incentives the government sets up. I believe the way policy is conducted in Europe (European Socialism as opposed to American Liberalism/Capitalism/Individualism) results in a much fairer society as a whole.
if you die due to healthcare insurance complications. It was your problem. In Europe, you get treated free (Or partially free, paying only a small fee). Likewise if you are in a difficult or handicapped position, in America you can't count on governmental aid to help reduce the gap of your limitations to others (For instance, if you're middle-aged in the USA but you can't find a job in your area of expertise as you're too old, you can't count on the assistence of the government.) While in Europe, you usually find tax bonuses and other assorted incentives for companies to employ the more older unemployed who have a much greater risk of long-term unemployment, which is one of the major causes for concern in an economy. Thus, you see that there is Social Interdependence in Europe, where the government intervenes by giving incentives for the society as a whole to do the right thing.I usually see a good example for European Socialism: Its like the Jedi Persuasion. The government attempts to encourage society to adopt a certain "stance" in accord with the policy conducted in the government. Of course companies aren't forced to take the incentives the government sets up. I believe the way policy is conducted in Europe (European Socialism as opposed to American Liberalism/Capitalism/Individualism) results in a much fairer society as a whole.
Let's see..
A) The government spies on its citizens (Echelon, anyone?).
B) Media is often being cencored (was just recently it was allowed to show troops coming home in body bags again).
C) Censorship against "bad" language on mainstream TV.
D) Second most video camera filled country on earth, watching your every step.
E) Insurance companies has HUGE rights to check medical background and other things (had a depression, dont tell the doctor, your life insurance will cost more!).
I could go on...
But meh!
A) The government spies on its citizens (Echelon, anyone?).
B) Media is often being cencored (was just recently it was allowed to show troops coming home in body bags again).
C) Censorship against "bad" language on mainstream TV.
D) Second most video camera filled country on earth, watching your every step.
E) Insurance companies has HUGE rights to check medical background and other things (had a depression, dont tell the doctor, your life insurance will cost more!).
I could go on...
But meh!
Originally Posted by Lemur:
Yeah, I'd say our prison population is a pretty hard strike against us being the "freest." Not a knockout blow, but definitely a hit.
Also consider the fact that a significant amount of the US prison population consists of non-violent drug offenders.Yeah, I'd say our prison population is a pretty hard strike against us being the "freest." Not a knockout blow, but definitely a hit.
But in one area America is going from strength to strength—the incarceration of its population. America has less than 5% of the world’s people but almost 25% of its prisoners. It imprisons 756 people per 100,000 residents, a rate nearly five times the world average. About one in every 31 adults is either in prison or on parole. Black men have a one-in-three chance of being imprisoned at some point in their lives. “A Leviathan unmatched in human history”, is how Glenn Loury, professor of social studies at Brown University, characterises America’s prison system.
Conditions in the Leviathan’s belly can be brutal. More than 20% of inmates report that they have been sexually assaulted by guards or fellow inmates. Federal prisons are operating at more than 130% of capacity. A sixth of prisoners suffer from mental illness of one sort or another. There are four times as many mentally ill people in prison as in mental hospitals.
As well as being brutal, prisons are ineffective. They may keep offenders off the streets, but they fail to discourage them from offending. Two-thirds of ex-prisoners are re-arrested within three years of being released. The punishment extends to prisoners’ families, too. America’s 1.7m “prison orphans” are six times more likely than their peers to end up in prison themselves. The punishment also sometimes continues after prisoners are released. America is one of only a handful of countries that bar prisoners from voting, and in some states that ban is lifelong: 2% of American adults and 14% of black men are disfranchised because of criminal convictions.
Conditions in the Leviathan’s belly can be brutal. More than 20% of inmates report that they have been sexually assaulted by guards or fellow inmates. Federal prisons are operating at more than 130% of capacity. A sixth of prisoners suffer from mental illness of one sort or another. There are four times as many mentally ill people in prison as in mental hospitals.
As well as being brutal, prisons are ineffective. They may keep offenders off the streets, but they fail to discourage them from offending. Two-thirds of ex-prisoners are re-arrested within three years of being released. The punishment extends to prisoners’ families, too. America’s 1.7m “prison orphans” are six times more likely than their peers to end up in prison themselves. The punishment also sometimes continues after prisoners are released. America is one of only a handful of countries that bar prisoners from voting, and in some states that ban is lifelong: 2% of American adults and 14% of black men are disfranchised because of criminal convictions.
Freedom doesn't mean anything.
As the other topic pointed out, each individual has is own view of freedom. For one, it's the right to bear arms, for the other, it's the right to have an abortion, for yet another person, it's the right to believe in a religion.
Most of the time, one person will think that her view of freedom is the right one, while trying to limit other persons's liberty when said liberty goes against her own values (one could think of the freedom to have an abortion, often dismissed by the traditional apostles of 'freedom', but obviously, there are other examples on the other side of the political spectrum - I for myself, despite being a leftist, oppose unlimited freedom of religion).
Freedom is also cultural. For the US, and for the people who admire the US, freedom mostly means little government. For myself, and I think most Europeans, access to a decent healthcare system is also part of 'freedom'.
For a french, unchecked freedom of religion is not freedom. Hence why we are very touchy about laïcité, whether it's related to catholicism or to islam. Yet, as the POTUS rightly pointed out when he visited France in June, the french conception of freedom of religion is not really freedom: people can't do whatever they want and don't give a crap about the rest of the society. Another example of 'my freedom is free-er than yours': I think my freedom to not have to bear with other people's religion is more important than their freedom to show me they're catholic or muslim.
Thing is, the US from their very beginning, have been claiming to be the land of the free, the country of freedom. They created this mythology, and decided to stick to it, even though history has shown repeatedly it's nothing more than a national myth (one could bring up the fate of the native populations, the ACW, the MacCarthysm era and the overall censorship of any communist or socialist idea, the limitations of civic liberties enforced during all the wars fought by the US, the Patriot Act, and the list goes on).
I'm not saying the US have a worse record than any other western country - I don't think they do : European democratic countries have repeatedly trampled freedom when they had to, or thought they had to. I also think the US puts more emphasis on individual freedom, at the expense of society (and I don't think it's a good idea), though it seems to me this individual freedom is strongly kept in check by a wannabe police state.
What I'm saying is that the myth of the the US as the most free state in the world is just another national myth, which really has little ground. Just like France (which is in many ways a country similar to the US) likes to present herself as the country of the Human Rights (tm), and as history shown us, this is quite a big joke.
As the other topic pointed out, each individual has is own view of freedom. For one, it's the right to bear arms, for the other, it's the right to have an abortion, for yet another person, it's the right to believe in a religion.
Most of the time, one person will think that her view of freedom is the right one, while trying to limit other persons's liberty when said liberty goes against her own values (one could think of the freedom to have an abortion, often dismissed by the traditional apostles of 'freedom', but obviously, there are other examples on the other side of the political spectrum - I for myself, despite being a leftist, oppose unlimited freedom of religion).
Freedom is also cultural. For the US, and for the people who admire the US, freedom mostly means little government. For myself, and I think most Europeans, access to a decent healthcare system is also part of 'freedom'.
For a french, unchecked freedom of religion is not freedom. Hence why we are very touchy about laïcité, whether it's related to catholicism or to islam. Yet, as the POTUS rightly pointed out when he visited France in June, the french conception of freedom of religion is not really freedom: people can't do whatever they want and don't give a crap about the rest of the society. Another example of 'my freedom is free-er than yours': I think my freedom to not have to bear with other people's religion is more important than their freedom to show me they're catholic or muslim.
Thing is, the US from their very beginning, have been claiming to be the land of the free, the country of freedom. They created this mythology, and decided to stick to it, even though history has shown repeatedly it's nothing more than a national myth (one could bring up the fate of the native populations, the ACW, the MacCarthysm era and the overall censorship of any communist or socialist idea, the limitations of civic liberties enforced during all the wars fought by the US, the Patriot Act, and the list goes on).
I'm not saying the US have a worse record than any other western country - I don't think they do : European democratic countries have repeatedly trampled freedom when they had to, or thought they had to. I also think the US puts more emphasis on individual freedom, at the expense of society (and I don't think it's a good idea), though it seems to me this individual freedom is strongly kept in check by a wannabe police state.
What I'm saying is that the myth of the the US as the most free state in the world is just another national myth, which really has little ground. Just like France (which is in many ways a country similar to the US) likes to present herself as the country of the Human Rights (tm), and as history shown us, this is quite a big joke.
Originally Posted by :
That is the difference between America and the European States. While American culture values Personal independence over Social Interdependence, Europe does quite the contrary. Bringing the Healthcare example, if you are out of healthcare insurance in America, for whatever reason (Ranging from being so ill stricken that a healthcare insurance's price is astronomical to simply not caring) you're on your own. People don't give a if you die due to healthcare insurance complications.
Besides, what's the use of freedom if you're dead/severely ill?That is the difference between America and the European States. While American culture values Personal independence over Social Interdependence, Europe does quite the contrary. Bringing the Healthcare example, if you are out of healthcare insurance in America, for whatever reason (Ranging from being so ill stricken that a healthcare insurance's price is astronomical to simply not caring) you're on your own. People don't give a
if you die due to healthcare insurance complications.Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly:
Although technically isn't somewhere like Somalia the most free place on earth....
I just thought the same. Although technically isn't somewhere like Somalia the most free place on earth....
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars:
It isn't a good idea to confuse anarchy and liberty.
Isn't anarchy the ultimate form of freedom from government then?It isn't a good idea to confuse anarchy and liberty.
And if you're free from government, then there are no government restrictions on your personal freedom either, which is why Somalians can be pirates and Americans can't!
Originally Posted by Beskar:
I reply to your other question where you can't think of a freer nation and I say Switzerland again.
Am I wrong?
But they're not a real country. I have it on excellent authority that they're just a collection of Italian, French & German crimelords, forming a tax haven.I reply to your other question where you can't think of a freer nation and I say Switzerland again.
Am I wrong?
I think Meneldil has the straightest shot so far. Very few and far between are the people that actually admit to this, but in general, "freedom" means freedom to do what I want and "freedom" to prevent you from doing what I don't want you to do.
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars:
It isn't a good idea to confuse anarchy and liberty.
Neither is it smart to confuse anarchy and chaos...It isn't a good idea to confuse anarchy and liberty.
Firstly, I follow Jolts statement of Personal independence and Social Interdependence as the 2 defining characteristics of freedom. Which one you prefer is culture related but it doesn't mean that one is more important than the other.
Secondly, I question the benefit of being the 'most free' country. I believe that everything should have boundaries in order to achieve a greater surplus value than could otherwise be achieved. Just think about what the free market resulted in for the moment. Nearly everybody now agrees that 'laissez faire' isn't the solution.
Similarly, I don't believe that neigh unlimited freedom, be it personal or social, is a desirable situation to be in.
Secondly, I question the benefit of being the 'most free' country. I believe that everything should have boundaries in order to achieve a greater surplus value than could otherwise be achieved. Just think about what the free market resulted in for the moment. Nearly everybody now agrees that 'laissez faire' isn't the solution.
Similarly, I don't believe that neigh unlimited freedom, be it personal or social, is a desirable situation to be in.
Originally Posted by Don Corleone:
Very few and far between are the people that actually admit to this, but in general, "freedom" means freedom to do what I want and "freedom" to prevent you from doing what I don't want you to do.
Oh yeah? Well then, Mister Smartypants, what exactly did Mel Gibson die for?Very few and far between are the people that actually admit to this, but in general, "freedom" means freedom to do what I want and "freedom" to prevent you from doing what I don't want you to do.
Originally Posted by Lemur:
Oh yeah? Well then, Mister Smartypants, what exactly did Mel Gibson die for?
Freedom!!Oh yeah? Well then, Mister Smartypants, what exactly did Mel Gibson die for?
Wait, do yo mean in Braveheart or The Patriot? If the latter, he died because it was an awful movie.
USA USA USA
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
USA USA USA
LOL, good one!USA USA USA
Took me some time to get it, but now I did it's sarcasm at its best
No need to make a point, or think about the issue... Just wave the flag and be patriotic...
Of all the countries iv read about the Netherlands seems like the most free. America is nowhere the most free since the prison population is enormously huge, the goverment WANTS people in prison, have no doubt about that.
Originally Posted by Mooks:
Of all the countries iv read about the Netherlands seems like the most free. America is nowhere the most free since the prison population is enormously huge, the goverment WANTS people in prison, have no doubt about that.
Depends, we certainly have the most civil liberties but the Americans are better protected (in law at least theory and practise huh) against their governments, the Netherlands is a bit of a townshall-junta, you wouldn't believe how many rules there are for very small things, and it can get very childish and very random.Of all the countries iv read about the Netherlands seems like the most free. America is nowhere the most free since the prison population is enormously huge, the goverment WANTS people in prison, have no doubt about that.
Originally Posted by Mooks:
Of all the countries iv read about the Netherlands seems like the most free. America is nowhere the most free since the prison population is enormously huge, the goverment WANTS people in prison, have no doubt about that.
?Of all the countries iv read about the Netherlands seems like the most free. America is nowhere the most free since the prison population is enormously huge, the goverment WANTS people in prison, have no doubt about that.
So that it can pay for them instead of them paying for themselves???
On the topic, I don't believe that USA is the freest country in the world. I'd put many European countries ahead of US...
As Meneldil said, it's just a national myth... A myth that goes a long way back, when people were slaves and/or were treated as second class citizens because of their colour, ancestry, religion etc..
Originally Posted by Mooks:
Of all the countries iv read about the Netherlands seems like the most free. America is nowhere the most free since the prison population is enormously huge, the goverment WANTS people in prison, have no doubt about that.
Are the people there even freer than what they are in Poland? Of all the countries iv read about the Netherlands seems like the most free. America is nowhere the most free since the prison population is enormously huge, the goverment WANTS people in prison, have no doubt about that.
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars:
It isn't a good idea to confuse anarchy and liberty.
True. That is at the basis of the so called "Social Contract". While in anarchy you have total freedom from a theorical point of view, the fact is that if you annoy/oppose/have something valuable to someone else in that total freedom area, there is virtually nothing to oppose them from harming/killing you but yourself. If/once they killed you, there is no government to trial for his murder. It is the law of the strongest. Likewise, since there is no Social Cohesion, you are forced to take matters into your own hands, and if someone does oppose you, since there is no other way of preventing other inidividuals from stepping in what you believe is/should be yours (In Nations there is a thing called Law, to which individuals can go to, to force other individuals on the same society to abide by the society's rules), you generally have to defend your possessions through force.It isn't a good idea to confuse anarchy and liberty.
In Anarchy, you sure have no duties, but problem is, you also have no rights. It is the law of the strongest. How do you become stronger in such a way of live? By banding together with other people to bully/kill third-party groups/individuals so you/your group can get what you want. Thus we get to where Somalia was a few years ago. A country run by clans/gangs, each with their own little territory where they could exploit as much as possible for their own well being.
As such, in Anarchy, if you are not the strongest, you have no freedom. If you try to have that freedom, you usually wind up dead.
In a cohesive Social construction, you also don't have full freedom, but you have it inside legal boundaries, and you can use those boundaries to theoretically do anything you want, despite how many people you bother. (For instance, pornography has appalled many people. In Anarchy, you'd probably see some conservative/religious individuals take the matter into their own hands and exterminating those which do not follow their own principals. In Society, they cannot do that, for as long as the majority of society, through the laws, allows such industry to exist.)
Thus you can conclude that you have much more practical freedom in a society than in anarchy.
I'll point you to HoreTore's message:
People wrote hundreds of books about anarchy. I doubt many of them described it simply as the law of the strongest.
Originally Posted by :
Neither is it smart to confuse anarchy and chaos...
What you're describing is chaos, not anarchy. Somalia is not an anarchic country, it's merely a chaotic country.Neither is it smart to confuse anarchy and chaos...
People wrote hundreds of books about anarchy. I doubt many of them described it simply as the law of the strongest.
Oh but in practical ways, it is and there is no way around it. By strongest I mean obviously the most capable.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
Let's see..
A) The government spies on its citizens (Echelon, anyone?).
B) Media is often being cencored (was just recently it was allowed to show troops coming home in body bags again).
C) Censorship against "bad" language on mainstream TV.
D) Second most video camera filled country on earth, watching your every step.
E) Insurance companies has HUGE rights to check medical background and other things (had a depression, dont tell the doctor, your life insurance will cost more!).
I could go on...
But meh!
A) My government does that too. And worse.Let's see..
A) The government spies on its citizens (Echelon, anyone?).
B) Media is often being cencored (was just recently it was allowed to show troops coming home in body bags again).
C) Censorship against "bad" language on mainstream TV.
D) Second most video camera filled country on earth, watching your every step.
E) Insurance companies has HUGE rights to check medical background and other things (had a depression, dont tell the doctor, your life insurance will cost more!).
I could go on...
But meh!
B) Check.
C) Yep. I'd consider ours to be worse, but hey.
D) Cameras are bad, but I can't find a statistic to back up that remark. All I can find is that Britain is the worst.
E) That doesn't really have anything to do with liberty, in my opinion.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
Neither is it smart to confuse anarchy and chaos...
Neither is it smart to confuse anarchy and chaos...
Originally Posted by :
anarchy [an-ark-ee]
Noun
1. general lawlessness and disorder
2. the absence of government [Greek an without + arkh- leader]
anarchy [an-ark-ee]
Noun
1. general lawlessness and disorder
2. the absence of government [Greek an without + arkh- leader]
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