mamertini

[belliger]

hi all.
palying as the roman, i went to conquer Messana, that was ruled by the mamertini.
what surprised me is that the mamertini army is composed massively as typical greco/hellenistic army, with hoplites, light infantry, greek/tarentinian cavalry and so on.
this should be corrected, as historically the mamertini were italic mercenaries of campanian -samnite origin. the name itself ' mamertini' means 'sons of mamers' which was the osco-italic version of the more common 'mars'.
so i guess that being more historically accurate, the eleutheroi army at messana should be composed mainly of samnite infantry and campanian cavalry .
thanks

[Fluvius Camillus]

hi all.
palying as the roman, i went to conquer Messana, that was ruled by the mamertini.
what surprised me is that the mamertini army is composed massively as typical greco/hellenistic army, with hoplites, light infantry, greek/tarentinian cavalry and so on.
this should be corrected, as historically the mamertini were italic mercenaries of campanian -samnite origin. the name itself ' mamertini' means 'sons of mamers' which was the osco-italic version of the more common 'mars'.
so i guess that being more historically accurate, the eleutheroi army at messana should be composed mainly of samnite infantry and campanian cavalry .
thanks

Wow you seem to know a lot about the subject, Italian yourself? Hopefully the EB members will react to this!

~Fluvius

[belliger]

from Encyclopaedia britannica:
English Mamertines


band of mercenaries from Campania, in Italy, who, by a shift in alliances, touched off the First Punic War between Rome and Carthage (264–241 bc). Their name was derived from Mamers, Oscan for Mars, the war god. Originally hired by Syracuse, in Sicily, they deserted, seized the Greek colony of Messana (modern Messina) about 288, and plundered the surrounding territory. When Hieron II of Syracuse defeated them near the Longanus River and blockaded Messana about 265, the band appealed for and received troop support from the Carthaginians. In a sudden reversal the Mamertini spurned Carthage, expelled the Carthaginian garrison, and accepted forces from Rome under the consul Appius Claudius Caudex. The gathering of the two rival intervening armies precipitated the general war. The inhabitants of Messana were still called Mamertines at least as late as the 1st century bc.

[Azathoth]

This information is in EB as well.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Wow you seem to know a lot about the subject, Italian yourself? Hopefully the EB members will react to this!

Hate to spoil it for you, but any general 200-page book on Punic wars goes in a much deeper examination of Mamertines. They were, after all, one of the main causes of the First Punic War... If people are surprised by that much about Mamertines, then it says bad things about their history knowledge of this period as well as their pledge to read more history in the User Agreement of EB. or that they are Romaioktonoi/Misromaioi . (I know you were just trying to compliment the OP, Fluvius )

[satalexton]

actually, we Romaioktonoi would fervently study all history, especially that of the barbaroi. Knowledge is power, there is much we have learnt from barbaropolis...how best to kill them for one.

[Aemilius Paulus]

actually, we Romaioktonoi would fervently study all history, especially that of the barbaroi. Knowledge is power, there is much we have learnt from barbaropolis...how best to kill them for one.

Same here . I would rather not know the best way to take it up the rear end (yeah, you know what I am talking about ), or read about totalitarian megalomaniacs, but hey - it is Hellenic history :P

[Kevin]

Knowledge is power, there is much we have learnt from barbaropolis...how best to kill them for one.

I thought Macedonia surrendered to Rome? Battle of Pydna, where Perseus escaped ironically similar to King Darius?

[Lysimachos]

Please back to topic. Should I be surprised that the reason for derailing this thread again is about not liking rome?

hi all.
palying as the roman, i went to conquer Messana, that was ruled by the mamertini.
what surprised me is that the mamertini army is composed massively as typical greco/hellenistic army, with hoplites, light infantry, greek/tarentinian cavalry and so on.
this should be corrected, as historically the mamertini were italic mercenaries of campanian -samnite origin. the name itself ' mamertini' means 'sons of mamers' which was the osco-italic version of the more common 'mars'.
so i guess that being more historically accurate, the eleutheroi army at messana should be composed mainly of samnite infantry and campanian cavalry .
thanks

I would suspect that they are represented by greek units in EB, because they used greek style equipment and tactics, as there are no italic hoplite units in EB.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Hate to spoil it for you, but any general 200-page book on Punic wars goes in a much deeper examination of Mamertines. They were, after all, one of the main causes of the First Punic War... If people are surprised by that much about Mamertines, then it says bad things about their history knowledge of this period as well as their pledge to read more history in the User Agreement of EB. or that they are Romaioktonoi/Misromaioi . (I know you were just trying to compliment the OP, Fluvius )

Thanks for seeing that.

actually, we Romaioktonoi would fervently study all history, especially that of the barbaroi. Knowledge is power, there is much we have learnt from barbaropolis...how best to kill them for one.

Can't.... resist.... urge.... on last bit.....

No I won't fall for that last bit... I'll just leave calmly without a stampeding counter argument and just play some more Baktria... Good to see that your group is into all history and not only of their own.

~Fluvius

[belliger]

well... please can we back to the topic?
btw the mamertini were not fighting in the greek way.
they were fighting in the pure italic way.
they are also mentioned in some former wars in sicily, as a group of famed mercenary cavalrymen: 800 warriors also called 'oi kampanoi'.
we do have in EB the samnite mercenaries, and campanian cavalry mercenaries, and they fight in the italic way. why don't use them as mamertini? it is also more correct historically.

[moonburn]

maybe but the population of messina was mainly greek so half of the stack should be of greeks (even spartan called uppon their "servents" in times of war), besides and as far as i know pyrrhus war there just before the start date and i´m pretty sure he probably tryed to free all greeks from the non greek oppressors (altough i really don´t know what trully happened there)

[Atilius]

...what surprised me is that the mamertini army is composed massively as typical greco/hellenistic army, with hoplites, light infantry, greek/tarentinian cavalry and so on.
this should be corrected, as historically the mamertini were italic mercenaries of campanian -samnite origin.

It's possible that the garrison of Messana should have something of an Oscan flavor. However, the situation is rather uncertain.

The Mamertines were Oscan-speaking Campanian mercenaries originally in the service of Agathokles. They are thought to have captured Messana shortly after Agathokles' death in 289 BC, 17 years before EB begins. Agathokles' army didn't consist entirely of mercenaries and the not all the mercenaries were Mamertines, so their numbers could not have been large. By 272 BC, most of the Mamertines who campaigned with Agathokles would have reached their forties. Yet they were able raise an army large enough to defeat a Syracusan army under Hiero near Centuripa at about this time. (Polybios claims Hiero was intentionally trying to kill off unruly mercenaries in his own army, but that seems dubious.) One must ask where this manpower came from. It's possible that it was brought in from southern Italy, but it seems much more likely that in the 17 years since they had taken over the city and surrounding region, the Mamertines had reached an agreement with some of the original inhabitants, perhaps exploiting political divisions common to greek cities of the time.

I encourage the original poster to support his claims with primary source material. While EB1 updates are unlikely at this point, we will revisit this issue for EB2.

[king of thracia]

The inhabitants of Messana were still called Mamertines at least as late as the 1st century bc.

So they would be the Martians..

[Urg]

All I can find in the ancient sources is that the Mamertini were comprised of "Campanian mercenaries". I wasn't able to find a more detailed description of their troops. I stand to be corrected if anyone can find something more detailed.

Using that little bit of knowledge, it may be that the only sensible way to approach the matter is to find out the type of troops that were common in Campanian/Oscan areas. This is what RTR seems to try to do.

I'm sure the EB team will have some background information which will assist here. I found two coins with images of Mamertine warriors which might help (one, two).

[ziegenpeter]

Wow! Thts why I love the EB forum. I always get something new to learn about ancient times. Thanks a lot.

@ The Rome/Hellenes flamers: You should definetly cut it out.

Consider this a warning. If anyone continues with derailing threads, pointless spamming, trolling, posting offtopic Romaioktonoi/anti-Roman/anti-Greek nonsense, insults, trying to lock threads etc. that goes against ORG policy will have their access removed. You won't be able to post here again. No exceptions.

Well I think guys you are lucky that Krusader and the other mods are too inconsequent to fulfill their warnigs.