1.4 Naval Balance Observations

[Durallan]

Another note: Ships don't seem to want to do stuff if you just right click other ships. They ust kinda go straight forward as if they were going to ram, but stop 30 or so feet away.

I've never found it to work myself, whenever I've ordered my ship to attack an enemy ship (with a broadside facing the ship itself) its decided to turn away from the enemy ship and seems to want to go in a large circle just to get the other side to do a half hearted salvo at the enemy ship. auto targeting works much better and means I just have to orchestrate my navy

[Slaists]

What really irks me (and was irking even before 1.4) is that square rigged vessels (any sail vessels actually) such as Galleons can ride against the wind like motorboats even after I have taken down 70% of their sails (and masts). Thank goodness for Darthmod. It gets rid of this nonsense.

[Fisherking]

There have been other changes. When a blockaded fleet attacks the blockade, if you are blockading then you can not retreat and if you run out the clock the enemy ships loose 5 guns and come at you again, and again, and again.

I had a sloop on blockade and some how the Spanish managed to build a galleon in the port. (a bug?) anyway after running away about 4 times I dismasted it and shelled it until is struck, so yes the small ships do pose a threat to the big ones.

It is not that I never managed to do that prior to 1.4, it is just a lot easier with the longer range of the small ships and the improved chain shot.

[Slaists]

There have been other changes. When a blockaded fleet attacks the blockade, if you are blockading then you can not retreat and if you run out the clock the enemy ships loose 5 guns and come at you again, and again, and again.

I had a sloop on blockade and some how the Spanish managed to build a galleon in the port. (a bug?) anyway after running away about 4 times I dismasted it and shelled it until is struck, so yes the small ships do pose a threat to the big ones.

It is not that I never managed to do that prior to 1.4, it is just a lot easier with the longer range of the small ships and the improved chain shot.

That bold part: I think, it was present also in 1.3. I was never able to retreat if I got attacked while blockading a port.

As to the small ships: are you sure they have a longer range? All my ships (frigates, sloops, brigs, Indiamen) display the same range for round shots in battle: 400. It's the chain shot (for all my ships), which has gotten a longer range now (500).

As to the chainshot, I definitely have a strong feeling it will be nerfed soon. I just had a battle of 1 sloop versus 4 brigs (all healthy) and I demasted them all without a scratch on my sloop...

[NimitsTexan]

Chain shot has more range than round shot? That sounds backwards.

I do find it interesting that the mostly positive reviews of 1.4 naval seem to amount to "good, CA did not really change much." Given that people did not seem to want this "balancing" in the first place, why implement it all?

[Durallan]

well I suppose they felt they wanted to change to something they desired more, maybe they have more fun fighting each other when theyre off the clock? I get the feeling that the chain shot range probably is a bug, I wouldn't have thought chainshot would fly further than round shot, but thats why I probably haven't noticed a change because I haven't tried firing chain shot at the enemy since i first started playing the game

[Hermann the Lombard]

Chain shot has more range than round shot? That sounds backwards.

It is backwards, just from air friction. As for not changing much, dismasting with two broadsides is a huge change. The French would have devastated the British navy since their doctrine was to give up the weather gauge and fire high, letting them withdraw if they wished.

[Sheogorath]

On the other hand, steam frigates (and galleys) now actually have a purpose. Maybe that was the point of the change?

[hoof]

What really irks me (and was irking even before 1.4) is that square rigged vessels (any sail vessels actually) such as Galleons can ride against the wind like motorboats even after I have taken down 70% of their sails (and masts). Thank goodness for Darthmod. It gets rid of this nonsense.

Let me guess: You're playing on Hard or Very Hard battle difficulty. I've never seen this behavior in Normal difficulty.

If you aren't playing Hard/Very-Hard, ignore the below.

I, too, have a pet peeve about stuff I've seen as a result of the game. More than once I've seen someone talk about something wierd (like a sloop boarding their 4th rate and winning), only to find out that they're playing hard or very-hard. It's like they want the "prestige" of saying they play on the harder difficulty levels (as if "Normal" was wimping out or something), but they don't want the AI to get certain advantages (like in melee combat, which lets a sloop capturing a 4th rate). The game gives *huge* advantages to the AI in hard/very hard, not just in firepower or morale, but in little details like reload speed for line infantry, or the ability for square-rigged vessels to sail up-wind at a reasonable rate (which does make the AI *harder* to fight <G>). Do *not* assume that anything you see in very-hard is "normal", or anything other than a cheat to help the AI be harder to fight.

Ok, rant over. Sorry, Slaists, you just triggered my rant, it wasn't directed or intended at you.

[Slaists]

Let me guess: You're playing on Hard or Very Hard battle difficulty. I've never seen this behavior in Normal difficulty.

If you aren't playing Hard/Very-Hard, ignore the below.

I, too, have a pet peeve about stuff I've seen as a result of the game. More than once I've seen someone talk about something wierd (like a sloop boarding their 4th rate and winning), only to find out that they're playing hard or very-hard. It's like they want the "prestige" of saying they play on the harder difficulty levels (as if "Normal" was wimping out or something), but they don't want the AI to get certain advantages (like in melee combat, which lets a sloop capturing a 4th rate). The game gives *huge* advantages to the AI in hard/very hard, not just in firepower or morale, but in little details like reload speed for line infantry, or the ability for square-rigged vessels to sail up-wind at a reasonable rate (which does make the AI *harder* to fight <G>). Do *not* assume that anything you see in very-hard is "normal", or anything other than a cheat to help the AI be harder to fight.

Ok, rant over. Sorry, Slaists, you just triggered my rant, it wasn't directed or intended at you.

Nope, my battle difficulty is on normal.

[hoof]

Nope, my battle difficulty is on normal.

Then my rant doesn't apply to you :)

Strange though about what you're seeing. Maybe they're going not straight into the wind but at an angle? Those triangular sails should allow them to tack at an angle at a not-to-unreasonable speed. Think about it, if square-riggers couldn't make headway against a wind somehow, they wouldn't have been much use!

It'd be nice if we actually saw tacking when going up-wind, but that would screw up the firing patterns for the player.

The challenge when tacking a real ship is to get enough momentum going so that when you haul it over through the direct-headwind point, you have enough residual speed so the rudder can turn you to the right angle in the other direction. That requires a fair bit of speed, especially for ships that don't go all that fast with a favorable wind to begin with.

I read a bit up on sailing after ETW came out and found it's quite a fascinating art/science!

[Dreadnought2]

I've always used chain-shot often (but still selectively) during naval battles.
I've also noticed the 1.4 AI is also using chain-shot far more often.

Under 1.4, the effectiveness of chain has jumped so much so that I've noticed the amount of damage formerly done by a full broadside chain-shot rake is almost as likely from a full broadside chain-shot flank hit.

Also, in the 5-6 battles I've fought so far, masts have been 'halved' rather than felled completely more often. It looks funny thereafterwards with other ships firing chain-shot harmlessly over the newly shortened masts...

I haven't used grape yet so I wonder if there are any surprises there...

Cheers,
Dreadnought1

[Slaists]

Then my rant doesn't apply to you :)

Strange though about what you're seeing. Maybe they're going not straight into the wind but at an angle? Those triangular sails should allow them to tack at an angle at a not-to-unreasonable speed. Think about it, if square-riggers couldn't make headway against a wind somehow, they wouldn't have been much use!

It'd be nice if we actually saw tacking when going up-wind, but that would screw up the firing patterns for the player.

The challenge when tacking a real ship is to get enough momentum going so that when you haul it over through the direct-headwind point, you have enough residual speed so the rudder can turn you to the right angle in the other direction. That requires a fair bit of speed, especially for ships that don't go all that fast with a favorable wind to begin with.

I read a bit up on sailing after ETW came out and found it's quite a fascinating art/science!

If only they (the ships) were tacking in ETW... And, nope, the case I talked about was not at an angle but directly AGAINST the wind. How do I know? Because I was going directly against the wind and the AI was racing behind me Anyway, CA acknowledged that their ships CAN sail against the wind. Their argument for putting that 'feature' in was that otherwise naval battles would be too long and boring...

[Zenicetus]

Anyway, CA acknowledged that their ships CAN sail against the wind. Their argument for putting that 'feature' in was that otherwise naval battles would be too long and boring...

They also said that players would get confused if they right-clicked for a ship to go to point X, and it turned away from the destination because it had to tack to get there. In other words, they thought the player base was too dumb to understand sailing... even though very basic games like "Sid Maeir's Pirates!" did include tacking, as well as other more realistic games.

I haven't followed the mods for ETW. Does anyone know if there's a mod that only prevents sailing upwind without touching the rest of the game, and can the AI handle it? I've heard references to Darthmod, but that's a whole-game mod isn't it?