German elections return a centre-right government

[HoreTore]

Oh man, thanks for the joke. The backroom can be depressing at times without such witty jesters as yourself.

CR

How 'bout posting some stats that show the US have a higher social mobility than europe? That will actually be a contribution, instead of just trying to ruin the discussion....

[Crazed Rabbit]

How 'bout posting some stats that show the US have a higher social mobility than europe? That will actually be a contribution, instead of just trying to ruin the discussion....

I didn't say the US had higher social mobility, I said Beskar's claim ("There is basically almost no social movability") was laughable. We do manage to avoid an 'unworking class' though, perhaps by not giving away welfare to life to anyone without a job.

And I could have listed many personal examples that proved that, but I didn't want to make such an effort to refute a claim that he clearly hasn't researched or thought about, but just repeated after reading it in Socialist Fancy or whatever.

CR
(Note, the above post contains hyperbole and generalizations. Take literally at your own risk)

[Beskar]

How is it laughable?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Because there's a lot of social mobility, especially for those who work hard to improve their situation.

CR

[jabarto]

Because there's a lot of social mobility, especially for those who work hard to improve their situation.

CR

Hahahahahano.

[Strike For The South]

Hahahahahano.

I have some people who would disagree with you.

[jabarto]

I have some people who would disagree with you.

And I know people who are working multiple jobs and still can barely make their bills, despite all their hard work. American Dream INDEED.

[Meneldil]

And I could have listed many personal examples that proved that, but I didn't want to make such an effort to refute a claim that he clearly hasn't researched or thought about, but just repeated after reading it in Socialist Fancy or whatever.

Who cares about personal examples? I've been to the US for 14 days and I could have listed many personal examples that proved that social mobility is quite low, as in, lower than in most western Europe, despite all the 'American dream' mumbo jumbo.

All Europeans live off the welfare system and Americas defense systems

This is something I can somewhat agree with. Although most europeans don't live off the welfare system (in which case Europe would be a third word area by now), it's quite true that said welfare system could only become possible because the US funded the defense of western Europe.
Europeans could never have afforded to defend themselves against a possible soviet invasion while setting up workable welfare states.
This is often forgotten by Europeans and Canadians.

To say the USA (a country of 300 million mind you) has much less mobility than the rest of the west is disingenous at best.

Now I don't see how the population is relevant. I'm not sure it has much less mobility than the rest of Europe, but I think the 'american dream' is kind of a fairy tale now.

Ostalgia. Lots of people in the East are incapable of looking back and seeing just how much worse off they were. That and the SPD is weak in many places in the East, making Die Linke the go-to leftist party.

I don't see how having a state-guaranteed job, a monthly income and living in a decent appartement is 'much worse' than being unemployed. Not to mention that East Germany had a disproportionnate weight on the international scene (being the showoff of USSR), while reunited Germany used to be pretty much nonexistant (things are changing lately, mostly because Germany decided to loosen its ties with France). Then again, there's the fact that social and economical inequalities were not nearly as bad as they are now (even though Germany is doing fine on that departement). You don't really care if you're poor, as long as you still can live decently, and as long as your neighbour isn't 10 times wealthier than you.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I don't see how having a state-guaranteed job, a monthly income and living in a decent appartement is 'much worse' than being unemployed. Not to mention that East Germany had a disproportionnate weight on the international scene (being the showoff of USSR), while reunited Germany used to be pretty much nonexistant (things are changing lately, mostly because Germany decided to loosen its ties with France). Then again, there's the fact that social and economical inequalities were not nearly as bad as they are now (even though Germany is doing fine on that departement). You don't really care if you're poor, as long as you still can live decently, and as long as your neighbour isn't 10 times wealthier than you.

I like how you can sit there in your comfortable French apartment and theorize about how glorious (or at least not that bad) socialism in East Germany ones, but a rational look at East Germany will reveal a very different conclusion. It wasn't a pleasant place to live in, however much people - even those who lived there - may look back at it and think it was. Anyone who keeps two eyes open can see why and how we are better off now by a mile.

[Meneldil]

I'm not saying Ostalgia isn't stupid. Honestly, I've only met a few east-Germans, and most of them are too young to remember anything about this era, yet they still felt East-Germany has been ripped off since the reunification.

What I'm saying is that I can understand this feeling. It seems that most of East-Germany will have a hard time catching up West-Germany. The area is less populated by now than in 1989, and the unemployement rate is much higher than in the rest of the country. Most young people are moving to the west and the convergence with Western germany still seems hardly achievable.

On the other hand, communist East-Germany used to be the jewel of the eastern bloc. Pretty much everyone had a job, and even though life wasn't awesome, it was still decent. Everybody was looking at East-Germany, because it was the main battleground between the West and the East. Now, nobody cares about it anymore, young people are leaving, factories are still closing and unemployement is still going strong.

The same thing is happening in Russia, by the way. Some people think life was better off 30 years ago. Some even think life was better off under Stalin's ironfist. When they see things are not going very well, people imagine life was much better a while ago. That's how the human mind works: myth of the golden age and all that.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I'm not saying Ostalgia isn't stupid. Honestly, I've only met a few east-Germans, and most of them are too young to remember anything about this era, yet they still felt East-Germany has been ripped off since the reunification.

I disagree - the former West has sunk much more money into the former East than it probably should have. That doesn't mean the East isn't still behind, because outside of places like Dresden, it is. The problem isn't with how much money the West has put in, but how it has been spent in my opinion.

The same thing is happening in Russia, by the way. Some people think life was better off 30 years ago. Some even think life was better off under Stalin's ironfist. When they see things are not going very well, people imagine life was much better a while ago. That's how the human mind works: myth of the golden age and all that.

I see what you mean now, and I agree with that. It's true that East Germany was better off than most other communist states, but I'd much rather be in the West.

[Vladimir]

I disagree - the former West has sunk much more money into the former East than it probably should have. That doesn't mean the East isn't still behind, because outside of places like Dresden, it is. The problem isn't with how much money the West has put in, but how it has been spent in my opinion.

It's about perception. East Germany went from being THE focus to A focus. The fact is that East Germany was bound to loose from reunification in the short term. The western part had the infrastructure, jobs, culture, etc that will take time to restore in the East.

This phenomenon is nothing more than sour grapes.