Pirate Ship Mafia [Concluded]

[Lord Winter]

You did a similar thing to me in Capo where you were trying to help the bad guys, im going to need your full role pm now to prove your not doing the same!

The townie PM is public so it won't prove anything.

[LittleGrizzly]

Arrg, That'd be a crying shame it only be a sublte attempt at irony says I!

[Language please - GH]

[CountArach]

I be a dirty downright decieving pirate, it be a possibility that sasaki's pm's were genuine...

Oh...kay? So tell me why we shouldn't lynch you for deceiving the town?

[DisgruntledGoat]

Claiming PM's are fake is pretty damning evidence for wanting to cover something up for sure. One could have easily explained the protection of contacts without resorting to lying. I can understand not revealing things to Sasaki, rule #1 after all, but to try and lie about the PM's suggests LG felt that the PM's were evidence of something. IMO instead of lying about them an able seaman would point to them as evidence for Sasaki's nefarious intentions. So... LG what did you think justified lying? Forget the not revealing protection partners or letting Sasaki in, all that matters is why you felt the need to claim they were fake when they were not.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I be a dirty downright decieving pirate, it be a possibility that sasaki's pm's were genuine...

Oh, Grizz!

Then just post in the thread that you already had got yourself a little group together, and that you were not available anymore, nor interested in divulging all the names and whereabouts of your group with everybody.

I didn't think anything of those PM's Sasaki posted. You could be mafia, or could be town simply treading carefully. Now you make yourself a suspect by blatantly lying about it.
When you are lynched or investigated, it means the two mafia groups or hidden roles are not.

~~-~~-~~<>~~-~~-~~

Sasaki, I think, is a pro-townie who's trying to undermine the town effort in a bid to make the game more...'interesting'.

Sasaki is like a quarterback who tells his own team they should only use their left hands, just because Sasaki thinks the opposing team is so much cooler than his own. He'll deliberately drop the ball to make his own team mates lose because he's eyeing the opposing team's cheerleader.



Also, I'm not so confident. GH is the father of mafia on the .org, this is a balanced game. There will be no such thing as the town cruising to easy victory. I say let us wait until we can assess this ship's strength before we smugly voluntarily make the game more difficult for the town.

There will be surprises. Hidden roles. Traitors who defect. Even more worryingly, the English can convert players against their very wish. And...every townie is in this for his own loot.
More than enough challenges for the town.
The last thing we need, is smugness about 'easy town win' before this game has even begun. We need to concentrate and organise, instead of doing the mafia's work for them because it would be 'lame' not to.

[Andres]

I for one don't understand what is so "lame" about using the possibilities at your disposal.

This is a role heavy game and everybody, from the simplest townie, to the biggest scumbag, can do something at night. Why would it be "lame" for townies to organise those night actions and to try to get everybody involved and all information available, to check for inconsistencies and flush out mafia.

Organising and getting as much info as possible is inherent to the game concept

If you want a game where you need to find mafia through analysing posts and behaviour in the thread, then a classic (or "vanilla" if you want) mafia game is probably more your cup of tea.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I see no reason to endanger the lives of my fellow pirate's to satisfy your suspicion...

The proposed vig group on you isn't a reason? And I'm sure the members of your group would be in grave danger, nobody the mafia would rather kill than some non power role basic townies who aren't opposed to killing off townie group leaders.

~~-~~-~~<>~~-~~-~~

Sasaki, I think, is a pro-townie who's trying to undermine the town effort in a bid to make the game more...'interesting'.

Sasaki is like a quarterback who tells his own team they should only use their left hands, just because Sasaki thinks the opposing team is so much cooler than his own. He'll deliberately drop the ball to make his own team mates lose because he's eyeing the opposing team's cheerleader.

I love being townie

Yeah, in the capo games it isn't that fun. But the godfather III was great...

I for one don't understand what is so "lame" about using the possibilities at your disposal.

This is a role heavy game and everybody, from the simplest townie, to the biggest scumbag, can do something at night. Why would it be "lame" for townies to organise those night actions and to try to get everybody involved and all information available, to check for inconsistencies and flush out mafia.

Organising and getting as much info as possible is inherent to the game concept

If you want a game where you need to find mafia through analysing posts and behaviour in the thread, then a classic (or "vanilla" if you want) mafia game is probably more your cup of tea.

I haven't had a game where I analyzed posts or behavior since the settlement. All I'm suggesting is that we don't employ tactics that would find the mafia in a couple days with no work done on our part. Imagine if GH hadn't given the townie pm to the mafia, we could go person by person and ask them "what's the 18th word in the pm" etc and find the mafia day one, that would be a "possibility at our disposal" would you want to do it?

[TinCow]

All I'm suggesting is that we don't employ tactics that would find the mafia in a couple days with no work done on our part.

I have yet to see a strategy suggested by anyone that would accomplish this. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't exist.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I have yet to see a strategy suggested by anyone that would accomplish this. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't exist.

Beskar proposed the obvious one...

[TinCow]

Beskar proposed the obvious one...

There are several flaws in his proposal:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Some roles are incorruptible (pro-town) and the captain and his henchmen are too.

If the town keeps electing the same ones, plus the incorruptables band together, they can force everyone into small grounds working together and anyone who breaks orders gets killed, while detectives roam the ranks rooting out the anti-town.

Just saying.

So discover if CR is really who he says he is, then if so, he organises everything and everyone keeps electing him, and lynch/vig kill those who go against CR while detectives roam the crew.

There you go, cut-throat stalinist way to win the game.

It takes 2 investigations to determine whether someone is incorruptible, but that doesn't even tell you if someone is a townie. Even if we 'assume' someone is a townie, they will still have to be investigated twice (and those results will have to be posted) before we will know they are incorruptible.

It takes 3 investigations to determine someone's actual loyalty. Until this is done, the investigation results do not appear to produce any information that is conclusive proof of innocence of scumminess. Thus, the triple investigations are pretty much required for the Captain.

In addition, triple investigations are required for the First Officer and the Quartermaster, because the first two investigations produce no useful information on them. The first just indicates whether they are active, and both of those roles will be active every night no matter what, so that proves nothing. The second investigation says whether they are corruptible, but that's also irrelevant because they can't be corrupted while in office. Thus, only the third investigation will produce something useful about the sitting officers.

So, just to 'clear' the current Captain, FO, and QM, there have to be NINE investigation results, which requires a full five nights from a detective. If one of those people dies in the meantime, or turns out to be scum, we have to replace them with a townie... which again requires another 3 nights of investigation to determine for sure.

For the 'incorruptible' groups, it takes an additional 2 nights to check out any prospective 'assumed' townie, to determine if they're corruptible. For a 3 man protection group, that means another 3 nights of investigations, and 4 nights for a 4 man vig group.

Basically, the game will end before the detective is able to get enough investigation results to fulfill Beskar's plan. And that's assuming the detective survives the entire time AND that some of his prospective candidates aren't killed before he's done investigating them. So, no, Beskar has not proposed a foolproof method of winning the game.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well, I could reply to that, but I don't want to make it any easier on the prospective groups...suffice it to say it's lame.

[Beskar]

Actually, you are incorrect TinCow, it would only take 1 night, under certain conditions, to get two tier3 investigations.

Also, investigators and protectors (pro-town roles) and other sort of things, are incorruptables. All the seamen would be in protection groups on these, and any free ones would be doing other things under the orders of the captain.

The plan, if everyone sticks it to (townie wise) would garentuee the town wins. It just requires full co-operation.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yarrr... I would not speak of guarantees, my lad.
There's plenty of evil to be doing and treasure to be had.
After the last voyage's success I would say
That some are not looking forward to an encore today
Some say being honest is "boring", remember...
Some players would rather pillage and loot and dismember
than follow the orders of a Cap'n on high
This is quite reminiscent of old Captain Bligh
I hear the shouts of loyalty now
But every silver-tongued traitor will politely bow
And then turn in for the night and plot the destruction
Of everyone here with an honorable function
And would you expect anything less? Pirates are we
murderous blaggards wanting to be paid handsomely
And if we don't get what we want, we might just take it
Overconfidence is a weakness, no guarantee we'll make it
I hold out hopes that the traitors have met their match
But matey, don't count chickens before they hatch.

[TinCow]

Actually, you are incorrect TinCow, it would only take 1 night, under certain conditions, to get two tier3 investigations.

I don't see how you can reach that conclusion based on the info we have on the investigatory roles.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Four thoughts:

- Sasaki may have been on to something. The Grizz is not a noob. He wouldn't make the elementary mistake of lying if he wasn't sweating and panicking. He acted as if he was found out. As if he was caught in the act. Also, why didn't, and hasn't, any of Grizz' four player group come forward? And why a group of four, if not to kill somebody?
Methinks Grizzly and his henchmen read that there's forty gold for a kill. And have turned rogue from the start, planning on killing and raking in the cash.

- There is no such thing as an easy town win. Because the townies are all enemies to one another. There is a double victory condition for the townies: win, and amass the most amount of gold.

See, for example, the comment on the Gizzly Four above.

Even if all six mafia names were to be announced right from the start, that would still leave a good chance of the town losing. Simply because of the mechanism of this game. This is not Capo.

- Which means there must be a balance between playing for the team, and playing for your own stash of gold. We need to keep an eye out for townies who are taking a free ride.

- This game is 'game theory' heaven. That is, the economic discipline of the connection of and interplay between common and individual gain.

[Tratorix]

Jeez, a townie network actually succeeds for once and suddenly they're overpowered? For each game where a large townie group actually did something useful, there's two more where they failed and took the rest of the town down with them.

[GeneralHankerchief]

The night round will end in 6 hours.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Jeez, a townie network actually succeeds for once and suddenly they're overpowered? For each game where a large townie group actually did something useful, there's two more where they failed and took the rest of the town down with them.

Yarrr... they just be more successful lately than in the past.
Council of Villains, Settlement, Capo, and they won't be the last.
I recall when I first came on the scene
groups were bad, as if they necessarily mean
that as soon as a network is formed, it loses
But this year it's the tactic everyone chooses
After each successful demonstration
The victorious town is filled with elation
And returns to the well for another cold drink
And the baddies all say that it's starting to stink
And now, the networks are called overpowered
And the outlook of every game has soured
Another town win, based on tactics called boring
and for some, the psychological aspect's been ignoring
Even for some who advocate it's employment
They might try to find ways to boost their enjoyment
I suspect that treachery is afoot, the scums are all maddened
And if it is not laddies, frankly, I'd be quite saddened.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: If the scums become disheartened and they don't even put up their fiercest fight, we all lose because then there's no challenge. I can kind of see Sasaki's point. But I think this game is the perfect level playing field to challenge the pro-town network strategy, considering employment in the mafia is mandatory if you're recruited. I trust GH has balanced things quite nicely somehow, and so there's no reason for either side to go easy.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Townie groups have always been effective when run with a minimum of competence...they used to be mistrusted so I'd argue against them on that basis, but it was really because I just don't like them. Too formal. Too boring, too easy. I blame myself for coming up with the idea of attack/defense groups in rubicon to confirm participation, didn't see where it would lead to. But in this game if you get everyone involved in a group that confirms what they did at night, and one person knows who everyone is they can direct the detectives to check on the other people. This is also a game where all the towns power roles are near invunerable because everyone is 1/3 doctor.

Let's just keep it casual and go after our suspects, the vig and protect abilities are a powerful enough feature to counteract the mafia recruiting ability. And they can kill eachother remember, in inishmore I don't think the townies caught a single mafioso and they still won.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Now I get it, I think. Sorry, I don't really play all that much mafia.
Indeed, it is possible to 'solve' mafia with a disciplined town effort. Protection/hit groups, forced participation at pain of death, a discplined and centralized organisation, and an excell sheet. It turns the game into a boring mathematical excersize. Lame indeed, as exciting as putting together the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.

Mafia to me is all about paranoia, psychology, gut feeling, and being blisteringly wrong most of the time.

But games must be played by players employing anything at their disposal. There's no turning back. When gameplay has progressed to a point where games turn into mathematics, the rules need to be changed, new challenges need to be found. In this game, I am counting on the competition for loot to perform that function. The town shouldn't hold back, shouldn't fight with one hand behind its back. If only, because...then where is the respect for the quality of the mafia players in this game in that?

[GeneralHankerchief]

I am watching this debate with great interest and Louis's last post really hit home in a number of ways.

I do request that everybody give this meta-talk a rest for a few rounds. Give this game a ride and see where it takes you first.

[atheotes]

well, i guess we will start talking about the game once we get the night writeup
right now there is not much to talk about the game

[Sigurd]

Idle hands, aye?

The deck needs cleanin, Sails need mendin and if yer really sitting on yer hands there is always the barnacles needed scrapin. Now get to it scoundrels!!!.

[Diana Abnoba]

Yarrr matey, this be "itchy Lou" again, I could tells ye another one of me stories.

*takes another drink from his rum bottle, then scratches his butt*

I was in the port of, ahh dang it, can't remember, well, anyway, when me met a wench named Patty.
Ahh, that was a magical night. They called her Pegleg Patty. Yarrr she be a dream, well, after me bottle of rum, that is. Now don't ye go knock'n her wooden leg, once we replaced it with the fancy kind that could bend, yarrrr, then we were in business. You can't imagine all the different poses we tried! Yarr, what fun we had then.

*parrot poops on his shoulder, he stumbles away*

[TinCow]

well, i guess we will start talking about the game once we get the night writeup
right not there is not much to talk about the game

LG would be wise to use the time remaining to explain himself better. The odds of us getting better information to go off of after the first night are low. DG's last post is spot on: the simple fact that LG appears to have lied about those PMs being faked does not look good for him. While the PMs themselves didn't really say a whole lot that concerned me, claiming they were faked (and then later admitting that they weren't) is a step that few people would take unless they had something to hide.

[Askthepizzaguy]

*sighs*

Itchy Lou be a fine sailin' man; there's none sweller.
Sometimes I wish he were a lady, he's such a handsome feller...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sigurd's right! Time to put some stick about! Get these girls to start scraping that deck.

Me and me lash will join the quartermaster. Get this ship cleaned and scraped, ye knaves!


I also discovered the officer's deck supply of rum. I'm going to drink ALL OF IT before the very eyes of you philosophising and limey literature reading ladies. First one to object gets keelhauled.


*passes Sigurd a bottle of rum*

[Louis VI the Fat]

And yes, all I'll be scraping on this ship is me two barnacles right here...

*burps*

[pevergreen]

Its up to the hosts to make it balanced...

[GeneralHankerchief]

One hour-ish remaining.

I might not be on during the exact deadline, so I'll accept all orders until I say otherwise here.