Shalom, Mr Ahmadinejad

[LittleGrizzly]

This is possibly a little tangent off the direct topic of conversation but I believe its related to the conversation at large...

I know exactly what the shah was and that was a friend to America in a place where friends are hard to come by.

Aside from Israel (we'll put that to the side for the moment) why do you think America is so hated in the ME, because of support for tyrants like the Shah (which incidently you/we otherthrew a democratic goverment to install)

If your going to constantly think like that, us vs them, then you are constantly going to make policy which makes them even bigger enemies, rather than trying to work past your differences your continuing the conflict with your attitude.

The reason you have hardly any friends in the middle east is because you go around pissing people off, the peoples off the middle east didn't declare you an enemy when your country formed, its your actions over the years that caused you to become the enemy. Continuning such actions now, because they are now your enemies is going to do nothing to reverse the course you set yourself

Russia did most of the work in WW2 (against the nazis at least) anyone who says differently is a troll or doesn't know WW2...

[Strike For The South]

This is possibly a little tangent off the direct topic of conversation but I believe its related to the conversation at large...

Aside from Israel (we'll put that to the side for the moment) why do you think America is so hated in the ME, because of support for tyrants

When that's all you have to choose form in the region it's slim pickings cowboy.

like the Shah (which incidently you/we otherthrew a democratic goverment to install)

I'm fully aware we overthrew a government but we can't go back and change that.

If your going to constantly think like that, us vs them, then you are constantly going to make policy which makes them even bigger enemies, rather than trying to work past your differences your continuing the conflict with your attitude.

The reason you have hardly any friends in the middle east is because you go around pissing people off, the peoples off the middle east didn't declare you an enemy when your country formed, its your actions over the years that caused you to become the enemy. Continuning such actions now, because they are now your enemies is going to do nothing to reverse the course you set yourself

I support the libreals in Iran and until they get into power I would like to make dinnerjackets life as hard as possble. But make no mistake we pull out of the ME tmrw and people will still hate us. We are past the point of no return with a majority of these people. I'm fully aware that we did some BS to start but it's useless to go back and say "THIS IS WHYYYYY" without offering anything else.

Russia did most of the work in WW2 (against the nazis at least) anyone who says differently is a troll or doesn't know WW2...

Pappy fought in the pacific.

[LittleGrizzly]

When that's all you have to choose form in the region it's slim pickings cowboy..

Well Im sure theres loads more reasons than that some of which I can't think off but thier support for unpopular tyrants has certainly been one of them

I'm fully aware we overthrew a government but we can't go back and change that.

I support the libreals in Iran and until they get into power I would like to make dinnerjackets life as hard as possble. But make no mistake we pull out of the ME tmrw and people will still hate us. We are past the point of no return with a majority of these people. I'm fully aware that we did some BS to start but it's useless to go back and say "THIS IS WHYYYYY" without offering anything else.

I really doubt there is such a thing as being beyond the point of no return. Germans and Jews can talk to each other today, Russians and Germans also... sure that may have took some time, but apologys and stopping off the negative treatment will start to make the hate go away eventually. You need to somewhat work with popular opinion in the ME and ride the crap storm you created, once you are truely not working as thier enemy you will soon enough convince enough people and outlive those that cannot be saved...

Pappy fought in the pacific.

Which is why I put my disclaimer in there....

Americans should more accurately have claimed to save Asia from Japan or Europe from a future Russian dominance than that speaking German crap I hear...

[Aemilius Paulus]

Russians and Germans also...

Yes, and plenty a Russian still despise or mildly dislike the what we still call "The Fritz". Those may not be the brightest individauls, but the bitterness remains, especially among those who have experienced the horrors.

Now, with Jews I have no experience on that matter, but I am certain there are at least "some" of them who share the same sentiment. I do not think it was a coincidence that the Ehud Barak-Angela Merkel meeting was the first of its kind...

[LittleGrizzly]

Yes, and plenty a Russian still despise or mildly dislike the what we still call "The Fritz". Those may not be the brightest individauls, but the bitterness remains, especially among those who have experienced the horrors.

Now, with Jews I have no experience on that matter, but I am certain there are at least "some" of them who share the same sentiment. I do not think it was a coincidence that the Ehud Barak-Angela Merkel meeting was the first of its kind...

Do not get me wrong the hatred is not completely eradicated, I do remember some Israeli youths burning German flags when Mr Scroehder (sp?!) visited a while back... though im fairly sure there was an element of youth's just like rioting you mentioned in another topic...

But the hatred is dieing off, most of the Russians, Jews and Germans alive back then are dead, very few remain and not all of them have the hatred. Those from generations on can learn the hatred somewhat but it never passes down as fully and the hatred never has any personal events fueling it, only stories to motivate the hatred. Basically my point is without continuing negative actions hatred will eventually go away... it may take a few generations for it to literally die out but you can help make it happen...

[Aemilius Paulus]

But the hatred is dieing off, most of the Russians, Jews and Germans alive back then are dead, very few remain and not all of them have the hatred. Those from generations on can learn the hatred somewhat but it never passes down as fully and the hatred never has any personal events fueling it, only stories to motivate the hatred. Basically my point is without continuing negative actions hatred will eventually go away... it may take a few generations for it to literally die out but you can help make it happen...

See, I am debating that point within myself. I know that most kids in their early teens in Russia passionately hate Germans. But those persons happen to not be very bright either... Since I do not live in Russia year-round, I am not certain how that individuals at late adolescence feel about it. In any case, I know that almost all grown adults today do not dislike Germany at all, not blaming the mistakes of the past on the general populace of Germany today (although we do view Germans as rather "cold" in temperament).

So I am still wondering if that German-loathing is a sign of teenage foolishness or if it is a new trend... I am guessing it is more likely to be the first, as most of today's adults certainly did not have a favourable opinion of Germany in the 50s though 70s, when most of them were born, under USSR.

Sorry for taking this off track

[LittleGrizzly]

I can just about remember being 6,7 or 8 and having a very very mild dislike of Germans simply because of the world wars (I was too stupid at this point to realise WW1 was not thier fault) I think this is probably similar to what these rather stupid Russian adolescents you refer to think like (although I was always fairly peaceful so thiers isn't as mild) thier probably at a similar intellectual level to the 8 year old Grizz. If im right and its along a similar level it is probably something these teens will grow out of and assuming no new German Russian tensions arise the thing will slowly die off even in the minds of angry teens as it will just be too long ago...

As an example of it dieing off the younger stupid Grizz never really had a problem with the French despite our huge history of wars.... theres some jokey rivalry between the French and the English but i think you would struggle to find a Frenchman and an Englsihman who would hate each other for thier nationality... because the history simply isn't recent enough...

Ohh and don't worry about the topic diversion... I think we stopped talking about Ahmadinejad possible Jewish ancestory a page or two ago...

[Furunculus]

But the hatred is dieing off, most of the Russians, Jews and Germans alive back then are dead, very few remain and not all of them have the hatred. Those from generations on can learn the hatred somewhat but it never passes down as fully and the hatred never has any personal events fueling it, only stories to motivate the hatred. Basically my point is without continuing negative actions hatred will eventually go away... it may take a few generations for it to literally die out but you can help make it happen...

certainly true in poland.

older poles have a casual racism towards jews, and a very particular xenophobia towards russia and germany.

younger poles are globe-trotting pragmatists with limited ties to rural catholicism, so they just smile tolerantly at the jewish remarks of their seniors, and while a definite distrust of russia and germany persists, the tales of starvation, executions and ghettos are second hand and thus the 'memory' less embittering.