Charles I.
Read Paine's writings, definitely.
Charles I.
Read Paine's writings, definitely.
People wanted to make George Washington President for life...
Robspierre enjoyed a good period of dominance before being consumed by the Revolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilien_Robespierre
There were the Greek Cities that supported Sparta's bid to dominate Greece from the tyranny of Athens.
Also: Emperor Palpatine.
Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.
"Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009
The civil war that took place when Caesar was in his late teens ended up with Sulla as dictator. He fought the war against Marius (of Marian reforms fame).
Edit: Just thought I would add, there is no consensus if Caesar ever meant to set up a permanent dictatorship along the lines of Augustus so calling it an attempt to become Emperor is misleading. He was simply a dictator, which had happened several times in Romes history, and may have eventually relinquished power.
Last edited by Tenebrous; 10-08-2009 at 04:04.
This is true, let us not simplify history. Caesar was a traditional Roman in most ways, even if (like Sulla, Marius, the Gracchii and Scipio Africanus) he sometimes used untraditional means. Let us not ascribe him motives he might not have had.
Edited to add
Pasted from "When was Rome doomed"-thread where I originally posted it.
End of Res Publica Romana is something I have done a lot of research in, and can say for certain what caused, but remember that the end of The Republic was not the end of Rome.
Rome's constitution was made for a city state, like hundreds of others around the Med at this time. It could not cope with empire.
Problem was by and large the senate.
Manpower in Italy and thus the potential pool of recruits for the legions was dwindling, badly because the smallholders were away warring all the time. Before they had been able to war some months, then return to their farms, Cincinnatus is an example in point. As Rome gained overseas provinces it had to keep soldiers in the field year-round and they could thus not till their land. This went fallow and was to some extent taken over by magnates who tilled it using slaves. Not the Latifundia system, this was not invented yet, nor did smallholders ever disappear entirely from Italy as some ancient writers ascertain in their rethorics. For they recognised the problem as well.
One of the Scipii (I forget which) considered proposing agrarian reform in 140 bc, but was dissuaded byt his friends. Thus Tiberius Gracchus was the one to propose it in 133 bc- and pay the price. It is important to note that he proposed it as a Plebejian Tribue and to the people, just as his brother Gaius did 10 years later when he continued and even radicalised Tiberius' policy of agrarian reform and curbing senatorial power. He too paid the price, but these two had taught the people that it had power. And at this point the Plebs of Rome was numerous and volatile- it would become worse. Note that the Senate (who would loose use of Ager Publicus) resisted agrarian reforms intensely, just as they did enfranchisment (? Giving citizenship) of Italy, leading to the Social War.
Now to another, seemingly unrelated, subject. The Cursus Honorum, as Rome got more and more provinces and riches poured to Rome(Roman aristocrats) making a name for yourself- as was necessary in politics- became more and more expensive. Building projects, Gladiatorial games and free grain became a necessity. To name an example Caesar was deep in dept to Crassus from this. This means that the aristocrats greed became larger, they needed money if they were to make a name for themselves, and they could only pay back those debts by propraetorship or proconsulship, which would allow them to skim the incomes from the province. Even honest men were caught in this trap, for all of them had generations of great men and expectations on their shoulders, they HAD to climb Cursus Honorum and do great things. Competetion thus became more and more intense and ruthless, end more and more expencive. Catilinia was a point in case, he failed and was so indebted that he had basically no other choice then try a coup. Now, remember this if you please.
Next step towards destruction was taken by Marius, he did not in fact professionalise the army as has been often ascertained, the average service time remained 6-7 years as it had been through all 2nd century BC. What he did was enroll everyone without considering the limits on income. Others had in fact done this to some extent, but he got a massive wave of volunteers who suddenly saw prospects for land when service was over. Rural Plebs, not urban, made up Marius' new army and indeed it was loyal only to him.
This brings us to good old Sulla, senate gave him command against Mithidrates of Pontus, and he wanted it cause Asia was very rich- much loot- People gave command to Marius, so Sulla used his army, made on the new model and loyal only to him, to march on Rome itself!!! and enforce the Senate's decision.
Marians took power while he was gone and repressed his followers and he exacted bloody revenge when he returned, with HIS army- loyal only to him, gained dictatorship, whith his army, gave them land and reformed some laws, etc. he then resigned and died.
The one to learn all these lessons, about the power of the people and the power of a private army was Gaius Julius Caesar, intelligent and ambitious, he used all the lessons learned by looking at Gracchii, marius, Sulla, and he gained absolute power. The Republic was dead.
But what killed it?
As should be evident, the depletion of recruits caused by the Senate's reluctance to agrarian reform and enfranchisment of Italy led to the recruiting of private armies that were loyal only to their general as only he could reward them sufficiently with land. This was one "branch of the cause".
Ambitious patricians had to spend more and more as the competetion in Cursus Honorum and provincial commands grew more intense. At the end people like Sulla and Caesar were willing to do anything, genocide, turning on Rome itself, proscriptions in Rome... to gain power, fame and a name. The Senate's stubborn resistance to reforms handed these ambitious men the ultimate tool, private armies, and with them, they killed Res Publica Romana.
All of this, recruitment for legions and the Cursus Honorum, as well as the way conquered land was shared was part of the constitution of Rome, the CITY STATE constitution that could not cope with empire and the riches it brought while taking the soldiers from the land.
You will notice that Caeasar mostly did what others had and followed Cursus Honorum, only by becoming Dictator for more than half a year did he deviate more than his predecessors.
Hope that helped.
In case you wish to learn more and in more detail, here is some literature on the matter.
Badian, E.: Roman Imperialism in The Late Republic, Oxford, 1968.
Beard, Mary & Crawford, Michael: Rome in The Late Republic, London, 1999.
(a) Brunt, Peter: Social Conflicts in the Roman Republic, London, 1971.
(b): Italian Manpower, Oxford, 1971,
Harris, W. V.: War and Imperialism in Republican Rome, 327- 70 BC, Oxford, 1979.
Last edited by Macilrille; 10-08-2009 at 06:53. Reason: Added a piece on the fall of the Republic that most have read before, but possibly not the OP.
'For months Augustus let hair and beard grow and occasionally banged his head against the walls whilst shouting; "Quinctillius Varus, give me my legions back"' -Sueton, Augustus.
"Deliver us oh God, from the fury of the Norsemen", French prayer, 9th century.
Ask gi'r klask! ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk
Balloon count: 13
As Tenebrous says, Sulla is the other obvious Roman example. Sulla was appointed dictator for the purpose of 'fixing the state', so to speak, although he resigned his office when he thought the task had been achieved.
Also in the Roman context, there are examples of attempts to overthrow the government (eg. the conspiracy of Catilina - although it is doubtful that he wanted to set up an autocracy). There is also at least one example of an 'autocracy' led by a small group (the second triumvirate).
And of course don't forget Augustus, the only truly successful Roman self-made autocrat.
I am sure there are heaps of examples from the ancient non-Roman context, but there are others than me who know much more about such things.
Syllas' dictatorship, the Triumvirate, Caesars' aspirations of autocracy are just the external signs of a deep social pathogeny prevalent in the Res Publica ...
Through conquest unification was established between the highly advanced and complexe eastern economies and the more traditionalist Italian ones.
Under free trade the Italian markets could not respond to the economic challenge of the overtly antagonistic east ... steadily and under the overwhelming flow of goods coming from the periphery the Roman producer class (and especially the small/medium scale agriculturers ) began to disintegrate and its members were pushed into proletarian status.
this social shift (=masses of nouveaux-pauvres) was the underlying cause of all the major civil strife that followed. The citizen-soldiers were replaced by professionals hired from the plebeian masses by influential leaders. clientelle relationships became the order of the day-more and more ideas of civic duty and devotion to the impersonal State ( Res Publica) were substituted by personified allegiances and authorities... civil wars , violence, crime , political assassinations, corruption, radicalism, war economy or even Caesar or Augustus were the mere after-effects of this social/political disintegration ...
SPQR -------> social pact between classes.
CONQUESTS (=deregulation of the pact)
EMPIRE------> new attempt for peace and unity
Ongoing Campaigns: Baktria, Casse, Koinon Hellenon, Pahlava.
Abandoned/Failed Campaigns: Aedui-Epeiros-Pontos-Saba-Saka Rauka-Sauromatae. (I'll be back though!)
Take a good long look at Chinese and Japanese history.
Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 10-08-2009 at 19:41.
- Tellos Athenaios
CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool - EB Install Guide - How to track down loading CTD's - EB 1.1 Maps thread
“ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.
Late Republic.
Also, I present Agathocles...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathocles
Best known for his Hail-Mary strategy of invading North Africa after losing all of Sicily to Carthage, winning a few battles, but ultimately getting defeated and fleeing back to Syracuse.
And somehow, he came out the winner in the end and got Carthage to give him back most of Sicily... XD
Also known for using the pretext of instituting a democratic government in Syracuse but killing all his rivals, becoming a tyrant, but reinstituting democracy in Syracuse at the end of the day. He also outlawed his sons from succeding him to boot.
Interesting guy.
Last edited by antisocialmunky; 10-09-2009 at 01:04.
Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.
"Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't there record of Caesar being crowned 3 times in the main forum area? He was crowned then it was supposedly removed then put back on 3 times. This suggests that he may have been trying to become king. Maybe the ppl didn't react very well so he removed the crown. Maybe he was showing he could become king if he wanted and was proving that he didn't want that title. Maybe he was simply leading up to a later point where he would be crowned. Testing the waters so to speak. Perhaps if he hadn't died so early he could have been king/emperor in the end. Octavius may never have had the chance. Especially if Caesar survived long enough for Caesarion to grow up.
Completed Campaigns:
Macedonia EB 0.81 / Saby'n EB 1.1
Qart'Hadarst EB 1.2 / Hai EB 1.2
Current Campiagns:
Getai/Sauromatae/Baktria
donated by Brennus for attention to detail.
I has two balloons!
How about Saddam Hussein and Slobadon Milosevic?
Of course there's Putin. How about Castro too?
Last edited by antisocialmunky; 10-13-2009 at 14:32.
Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.
"Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009
Given that Kevin's participating in a recreation of a debate going on in the late 18th century, we should probably confine our answers to people who lived before that time period.How about Saddam Hussein and Slobadon Milosevic?
Of course there's Putin. How about Castro too?
Agreed. Pretty much everyone agrees that this was a staged event since it seems unlikely that Marc Antony would just HAPPEN to have a crown on him while he was running in the Lupercalia. However, from there it is interpreted in several different ways. One school of thought is that Caesar arranged for Antony to do it so that he could test the waters for declaring himself King. This is generally the way ancient historians (and probably Caesar's contemporaries) interpreted it. It's also been suggested that Caesar had no knowledge of it and that Antony himself planned to do it either to make Caesar look bad by suggesting that he was being considered a king or because he genuinely thought that Caesar should be king. I think the most likely explanation though is that the Roman people were getting worried that Caesar would declare himself King and so Caesar arranged for Antony to offer him the crown so that he could publicly refuse it and thus dispel those notions. If this was his plan, it backfired somewhat, as people generally interpreted it as him testing the waters for monarchy. -M
Last edited by Mulceber; 10-13-2009 at 16:01.
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There are various versions of the story of Caesar and the crown, Wiki actually has an ok article on the subject.
'For months Augustus let hair and beard grow and occasionally banged his head against the walls whilst shouting; "Quinctillius Varus, give me my legions back"' -Sueton, Augustus.
"Deliver us oh God, from the fury of the Norsemen", French prayer, 9th century.
Ask gi'r klask! ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk
Balloon count: 13
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