Overstretched AS Borders...... Where is the Optimal AS Borders?

[Cute Wolf]

Well, actually, for about a month ago, I play a new EB-BI campaign as AS, and choose VH/M. But some diplomatic disasters led me into a really ugly war (Me, alone, vs Really Large Block of Alliance consisting Ptolies, KH, Makedon, Sauro, Hay, Baktria, Pahlava, Saba, and Saka --- Hay is allready dead).

And now as I stucked at the west Asia minor, guarding the Byzantium strait with my only full-stack of Argyraspidai (my only elite stack here, because the Makedonians throw their own, and Hetairoi too, at double rate than my income allows! also counting some KH ships try to land their soldiers on Rhodos and Hallicarnassos).

Alexandria and Memphis are currently under siege-relieve-siege with Ptolemaioi remnants (not truly a remnant.... as they now had Kart-Hadast), and from that title, you can guess, that almost all my soldiers here is Pantodapoi Phalangitai, Pantodapoi, and some local slingers.

The Arabian deserts are now rather peaceful, but my diplomatic stances, at war with Saba, leaves my Iudaioi garrisons here cannot be used to reinforce another front (only 4 or 5 iudaioi taxeis per city though, with some Gund-i Palta as backup). The Sabyn really has some frightening fullstacks there...

Indian conquests are allready done, and leaves my troops on Baktra border (Pantodapoi filled troops), at reccurent skirmishes with those Nomads and Baktrian remnants.

The Sauro passway (formerly Hayasdan territory) is at their limits now, as I must drain (literally) pantodapoi Phalangitai CONSTANTLY from my peaceful central provinces to build a human wall to block those HAs

Well, the Problem is..... My economy is fine, but because the Troop drain that I need to fill my overstretched borders, every city that under my rule can't envolve past large cities, even some of them is still large town..... (Well, I know, there was a add_population cheat, but this time I didn't use any cheat except toggle_fow). The Troop casualities is really high because I also face every battle with 2x or 2.5x enemy troops more than mine, and 2000 vs 5000 men is still considered a good result if you lost 1400 men and they lost 4800. Is there something wrong with my AS campaign?

*. Note: I don't use force diplomacy...... Last time I play another AS campaign, I use that to made not everyone hate me, but now, I want to try how if everyone hate me, and now, I'm rather exhausted with several Pantodapoi vs Deuteroi vs Nomad HA fighting everyday

[Jebivjetar]

I think your problem is VH difficulty setting. I don't know about others, but for me VH doesn't make game more challenging but more boring, because you have to fight ALL THE TIME over and over again against endless fullstacks, especially if you have large border as you do and thus a lot of enemy AI armies... this is boring for me, so i always play on M or H

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

VH battle difficulty? Then I'd say you dug your grave alone, so get out of it alone.

VH campaign difficulty? OK. I think first, your troops need more armour. Besides all the whining "Pantodapoi Ph. are as good as Elite Phalangitai", this is simply not the case. They aren't. Build your armies around Pezhetairoi and Thorakitai. Lots of Thorakitai and a few Foot-tankoi and Peltastai Makedonikoi.

Also, Phalangitai are not a good garrison. Especially for forts. To maintain an effective defence with forts, you should keep an army in the backyard to do the fighting. Fort garrisons aren't meant to fight, they are just meant to block the path. Garrisons fighting should only occur if you can afford at least a medium quality quarter-stack for every fort.

For Egypt, I'd say build a regional army and intercept the enemy. Don't sally, it takes an awful lot of time and yields more casualties to you.

For missiles, Kretan, Syrian and Bosporan archers and Rhodian slingers all do an excellent job. For example, 2 units of Bosporan archers and 2 units of Rhodian slingers in your army that shields your Kaukasos flank and the one protecting your Oxos flank should be very effective against the damn horse archers.

As for your borders, avoid open land and choose borders with choke points.

[gamegeek2]

#1 - Build mines. This is an important early investment, and funds your later conquests.
#2 - Invest in good medium quality infantry, such as Thureophoroi, and make these the backbone of your army, along with some number of phalanxes. The two form an excellent team.
#3 - Fight horse archers with horse archers. Recruit some Pahlava Shivatir, Skuda Uazdaet or other regional horsemen and use those to fight the Sauromatae.

Recommended Agemon Kaukasoi (Guard for the Caucasus)
6 Horse Archers
2 Cretan, Syrian, or Bosporan archers
2 Thureophoroi
2 Phalangitai (Klerouchoi or better if possible)
At least 1 Heavy Cavalry (FM, kataphraktoi, hetairoi, or merc general)
1 Medium Cavalry (lonchophoroi, prodromoi, medians)

Expect the HAs to take lots of casualties, minimize this by not being reckless with their deployment. Guard your foot archers carefully, you don't want them taking large amounts of melee casualties.

Do NOT use lightly armoured infantry to fight horse archers (except archers). These will simply be arrow fodder, and this is not a good use of your money, nor your population.

I highly recommend at least 1 unit of horse archers in all of your armies. They are great pursuers, can easily flank an enemy and shoot at his side or rear, and are unmatched at dealing with lightly armoured troops.

[king of thracia]

Starting provinces + Ptolemaic possessions outside Egypt and - everything beyond Alexandria Ariana to Baktria was very stable for me on H/M. Short of conquering everybody, this is a way to have peaceful borders. I also cede Ipsos to Makedonia and abandon Mazakia. This will set Makedon and Pontus at odds. Gaining the southern coast of Asia Minor (and I have Phoinike and Ioudaia as well) from the Ptolemies instead generates much more revenue, in addition to the peace of mind you are looking for. Ptolemies send an easily defeated army to Hierosolyma every couple of years. That's years, not turns. Pahlava is constantly raiding. But with a proper army I take very few casualties and can retrain quickly. Everywhere else is at peace.

Hayasdan did get owned by Sauros but I reinstated them in their ancestral capital, capturing and gifting the border cities guarding the mountain passes to them as well.

I can conquer Asia Minor, Egypt, or the Parthians at any time. On VH/M the enemy armies may be larger and more frequent and diplomacy may be surlier. I keep large garrisons on borders and win pretty much all my battles. That tends to take care of things. What you can definitely take away though is putting Hayasdan in control of the northern mountain passes which should block up the Sauro problem.

For your current situation you should crush Saba and conquer Egypt, and as mentioned block up the northern mountain passes with Hayasdan. Unfortunately the Parthian frontier is harder to pacify, as they will constantly attack especially on VH and if you conquer them there are still Saka, Baktria, even the Sauros. Maybe you can wall off the border beyond with Baktrian control, assuming you are at peace with them and they at war with the Saka. Baktria may attack you instead of course.

An army set against the Parthians or other nomads should have mass armored foot archers and some cheap phalanxes. The phalanx will repel the cataphracts and the mass foot archers will win against all the horse archers. Focus fire helps to force routing but is not necessary. Armored archers can be recruited near the frontier from many of your southern Persian provinces. There are also Toxotai Syriakoi and Kretikoi farther west.

In real life you would have lots of cavalry to chase the nomads into the steppe as needed, but RTW is all about set piece battles.

If you don't have cataphracts yet there is a console command to do it; some thread about seleukid cataphract reforms should have it.

[Cute Wolf]

well, I myself was a really exstensive HA users, look my long forgotten Saka AAR and my group but the problem with my AS is rather simple, I allready build mine, and my borders are now filled with pantodapoi phalangitai, and at the north, you could allready guess I hire massive HA troops on my own too... but My problem now is in manpower, as I play on huge, and well, VH campaign is really **** everything up, including all faction join up against me.....

The Biggest problem, if you could tell from my story, is NOT at the north or egypt..... It was the Makedonians, who allready burn Rome (read: Barbaropolis burned by Makedon again!) by themself, and allready claiming Southern france in 178 BC. For some Obvious VH campaign AI reason, they sent numerous Hetairoi, Argyraspidai, and Hire all Mercs, together with their allies KH (who for some reason now held Kreta and Sparta, along with Syrakousai and Bosophorans), knocking my Byzantium pass soo often that the lesser players will simply "quit" from that region. That's why I put all my best soldiers here! Anyone had an idea on how to kick the Makedonians out of Pella (soory Satalexton), and gain VC?

Note that another front are also on their limit, I can't afford diverting troops for now, but at least now I'll try to deal with Sabyn first....

[king of thracia]

Crushing Saba and conquering Egypt is meant to free up your attention and resources. But if they are weak or quiescent and you want to rush VC, build a navy and drop armies directly onto the cities of Greece. Between Makedon and KH, Makedon is the stronger. Capture their troop centers of Pella and Demetrias first.

HA and elephants are your super weapons.
Bait the enemy and then shoot them in the back. Once you're out of arrows isolate groups and mass charge from all directions with armored horse going in first. Pin the line with phalanxes and smash them up with cataphracts and elephants. Have the elephants just run through enemy formations and there will be mass routing.

Hellenic armies tend not to have much ranged, but if they do, kill enemy archers and slingers first. Focus fire and charge with your armored melee horse, wasting as few arrows and HA as possible. Use foot archers of your own instead of exposing your HA if the enemy makes a habit of bringing a lot.

[Brennus]

I am a long time player of the Arche Seleukia and hopefully I can help. After trying a few times to maintain my borders as they exist at the beginning I realised (with the 1.2 Mod) that this was impossible and so withdrew back to Persepolis and Gabai destroying as much of the infrastructure along the way as possible and dismissing the mjority of the garrisons (I kept any medium cavalry, Persian archers and phalangites for garrisons on my new improved border).

From previous games I knew what my key goals were, build up the ecomony and most of all CRUSH THE PTOLEMIES. Once you have dealt with your incestuous Hellenic cousins your game should hopefully go alot smoother, although I only play on Hard campaign difficulty I must agree with some of my peers that by playing VH you may have already signed your death sentance.

Just remember that once you control Egypt your money problems largely subside. Also try to think of the Arche Seleukia as much more fluid than other empires. The Arche can afford to lose massive stretches of territory and still win in the end, if you lose a few cities in Anatolia or Persia don't fret about it, you will find with the Pahlava and the Baktrians in particular that once you start to role back one of their conquests you will rapdily overrun them. Just DO NOT lose any territory in Mesopotamia or Syria (if Seleucia, Antioch and Babylon fall its all over) or you will be doomed, if you own Egypt you can afford to retreat back to there if you really need to but I wouldn't advise it.

[Atraphoenix]

Askhanis will attack you even at the end of first turn, you will lose baktria, pontos, armenia as allies so attack them first! (They will attack so why bothering)
as you keep your allies you do not have to worry about east at the beginning, Askhanis (Pahlava) will overrun some provinces Alexandreia eshate and marakanda are likely to revolt so giving them Baktria is a wise choise that also keep pahlava at bay for a while.

your main concern will be Ptolemies (as that was in real history)
Do not wait for Antiochus III the Great for the second golden age. change history, send ptolemies to the ashes of history.
Some cities may revolt (that was same with the history LOL ) I think AS is best depiction of historical accuracy of EB team.
think that they are rebel satraps, leave them alone until you finish Ptolemies.
if you hate destroying other factions like me leave them the 2 cities in Libya (Cyrene and one neighbour city ) as buffer zone between you and Carthage who loves attacking any faction who controls egypt.
your battles will take ages, esp. Phalanx vs. Phalanx battles so as many said before, spare good line infantry or cavalry. I like hammer and anvil so I spare cavalries.
syrian archers are best after cretans use them wisely.
after you conquered egypt, attack rebel cities and (media) atropates if you gave the said 2 cities to baktria Pahlavans may get asaak, margiane, and maybe hyrcania but never allow them to take parthia (hekatompylos) build stone wall in heka ASAP. believe me even catas has no chance against phalanxes in sieges in a city with stone walls.

for optimal borders?
EB map is too small for her
it is only your imagination that limits her borders.
She is my best enemy, I feel very sorry fer her AI (artificial idiocy) that will soon make her history.
if you followed these outline with the money you have from egypt and with the cavalry you will get soon (hellenikoi kataphraktoi) and with even pezotairoi (no need to argiraspidai) no enemy may stand against your armies.

I can repulse even Grivpandar with pezo. Just watch how AI sacrifices them in a frontal charge against phalanx.

As I find them too easy with EB I prefer not to play with her but in Vanilla I spend years on them.

PS . Never forget they have best and the widest unit AOR!

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Isn't the best way for Selukia to deal with nomad horse archer armies simply to use money? Bribe them to go away. Or send a general into a nomad region and use your money to recruit a whole army of horse archer mercenaries, and use them to defeat the enemy HA's.