Another Next Total War Poll

[Fisherking]

No one gets it do they!

Fine, I laid it on thick about the past, great...

That was a preamble to what came after.


Everyone is pining for Shogun 2 here, meanwhile the kids are voting for another go at Rome...

That is all I was trying to say!

If I laid it on thick about a golden age of games that never really was For Get It...It was about Rome and Not STW2

You got it yet????


edit:



I can’t just leave it...

You guys are like Joe Friday

Embellishment is way over your head it seems....

I bet you send birthday cars like...

Its your birthday huh?

[Braden]

Had a radical thought this morning (and to tentatively get thread back somewhat on track)..ok, not a full new game but an expansion:

Revolution: Total War

Covers -

English AND American Civil Wars using ETW's expanded engine.

Covers those wanting a more "Medieval" style game with the English Civil War and those wanting a more modern feel of mid-late 19th Century warfare with American Civil War.

Maps could be made quite extensive with gameplay similar to ETW with towns, farms etc being outside the regional capitals and the regional capitals a bit more realistically un-advanced.

(yeah, ok, I want an American Civil War game but thought just focusing on that wouldn't really make a good value £20 expansion)

[caravel]

Fisherking actually made a good post and it does sum things up well. Some of you are perhaps too young to know how the gaming industry started out.

Once upon a time hard-core gamers were a force in the market. They bought the high-end machines and the games that ran on them.

This is absolutely true. There was a time when there were hardcore gamers only. Nowadays just about every device can play some kind of game whereas back then you needed a decent PC with a 3D accelerator card or a dedicated console. When I was a lad, my parents would not even let me have an Atari because someone told them that they "break the TV". Being a gamer was being against the system. Everyone disapproved. Parents, teachers, the general public, siblings, even friends. My father expected me to be out on the football pitch, he could not understand gaming or the need for it. Any negative press read in the newspaper or seen on TV about gaming was taken as an excuse to limit my time playing games. I had to be a hardcore gamer.

There were a lot of studios but they all gradually dwindled. They were bought out, went under, or taken over.

This is true as well. Some of the best studios in fact were bought out and then went under or were laid off by the new owners. The small studios innovated and the big publishers simply bought them out and milked the frachise to death. This went on and on until it created the current gaming market.

There are so many developers consigned to history now that it's hard to keep track of them all. In most cases the takeovers of these small stuidios by the big boys such as EA and SEGA has also seen a decline in innovation. Games are now less revolutionary and more formulaic. They stick to what sells and annual profits are the primary concern. Smaller studios try to revolutionise the market and make a name for themselves, this is what keeps good quality games in the pipeline. It is this innovation and originality that has dried up in recent years.

Today it is the mass market and casual gamers that seem to rule the roost.

Nowadays with so many devices capable of running games and the attraction of multiplatform, it's sad that the games industry has gone the same way as the music industry. It is targeted at the widest possible audience and thus is nothing special. It's rather like trying to cook a meal that everyone will like. You will realise that person x does not like tomatoes and that person y dislikes chilli, and person z is not overly keen on spices. What you end up with is something bland, unoriginal and uninspired that is trying to cater for too many tastes. This is what the commerical music industry is like and this is also where gaming is heading.

The time, effort, and heart are not going into these games. It is no longer the feel of the game but the dazzle of the graphics that matter.

The marketing of new games is mostly about screenshots and short demos. Without the revolutionary graphics games will score low with the reviewers and will not impress when it comes to screenshots. This is why the visuals are the main focus. When a potential customer is reading a magazine review it's all "book by the cover". They cannot really make an assessement on AI or gameplay at that point.

Realism is just something for 3D shooters and Historical Accuracy only applies to the lines of Airplanes.

I'm not entirely convinced that TW needs "realism" in the sense of realistic terrain and graphical violence. The realism required is at the physical level, i.e. trajectories, windage, weather, fatigue, morale atc. TW game have lacked any semblance of this since MTW and for other games, except simulations, this kind of realism is never a priority. TW has followed the same path, where 'realism' has become purely visual.

Most only have enough grasp of history and geography to know that Rome was a long time ago and Europe isn’t a province of Canada.

Somewhat of a generalisation. I don't think historical accuracy is the real issue. I would not care if CA made Dungeons & Dragons - Total War, so long as the tactical battles and proper physics, balanced units and gameplay returned with better support for the MP community.

So, just expect Rome II and when they are up to it WWII...

R2TW will probably be next, WWI and WWII would be unworkable IMHO, due to the unsuitability of the TW engine. Other types of games can do that better.

[Braden]

I’m not too young but at the time I just cared little about the details other than trying to get my BASIC written software (that I’d taken three days to type in) to work on my Vic-20.

I’d hate to see a RTWII mainly because so many Mods have already made the game just about good enough in my opinion and it’s a “well flogged horse”

Asia, Helenistic or Civil Wars is the way to go! New territory, that’s how CA will get new and more custom, not re-hashing products already available for under £5 on eBay (oh yeah…and without the STEAM fecking about).

I also agree that either world wars is just not suitable for the type of Battle scenario TW games use. The Campaign however would be awesome…but the battles pretty much a mess.

EDIT – Modern warfare (i.e. 20th Century) just moves TOO FAST for an appropriate level of Realism vs. Numbers of Units vs. Number of Men per side vs. weapons available.

Air combat would be a MUST and it also has to be at the same time as ground battles means its really unworkable.

[Freedom Onanist]

From a post of mine on another forum.

There seem to be no end of wars in the 19th cent to choose from alongside the obvious ones (ACW), which have been done over and over again.

Oh, and this is by no means a full list.


1810s

* South American revolutions

1820s

* 1820: Liberia founded by the American Colonization Society for freed American slaves.
* 1821-27: Greece becomes the first country to break away from the Ottoman Empire after the Greek War of Independence.
* 1823-87: The British Empire annexed Burma (now called Myanmar) after three Anglo-Burmese Wars.
* 1826-28: After the final Russo-Persian War, the Persian Empire took back territory lost to Russia from the previous war.
* 1825-28: The Argentina-Brazil War results in the independence of Uruguay.
* Portuguese Civil War, 1828-1834

1830s

* 1830: France invades and occupies Algeria.
* 1830: The Belgian Revolution in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.
* 1830: Greater Colombia dissolved and the nations of Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela, and Panama took its place.
* Polish Rebellion 1830-1831
* 1833: Slavery Abolition Act bans slavery throughout the British Empire.
* 1833-76: Carlist Wars in Spain.
* 1835-36: The Texas Revolution in Mexico resulted in the short-lived Republic of Texas.
* 1837-1901: Queen Victoria's reign is considered the apex of the British Empire and is referred to as the Victorian era.
o Many, many, many military campaigns. Read any of the Flashman books for British Military entaglements in this period. Very funny and well informed, I'd recommend them to anyone who has an inflated view of "military glory".
o First Anglo-Afghan War 1838-1842
o (First) Opium War 1839-1842
o First Anglo-Sikh War Punjab 1845-1846
o 2nd Anglo-Sikh WarPunjab 1848-1849
o 2nd Anglo-Burmese War 1852
o Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-1880
o Third Anglo-Burmese War 1885
o Etc...
* 1838-40: Civil war in the Federal Republic of Central America led to the foundings of Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Costa Rica.
* 1839-51: Uruguayan Civil War
* 1839-60: After two Opium Wars, France, the United Kingdom, the United States and Russia gained many concessions from ChinaQing Dynasty. resulting in the decline of the

1840s

* 1840: New Zealand is founded, as the Treaty of Waitangi is signed by the Maori and British.
* 1846-48: The Mexican-American War leads to Mexico's cession of much of the modern-day Southwestern United States.
* E : Matiner's War 1846-1849
* 1848: The Communist Manifesto published.
* 1848: Revolutions of 1848 in Europe

1850s

* 1851-64: The Taiping Rebellion in China is the bloodiest conflict of the century.
* 1854-56: Crimean War between France, the United Kingdom, the Ottoman Empire and Russia
* 1857-58: Indian Mutiny of 1857
* Franco-Austrian War 1859 (leads to the creation of the Red Cross due to the large number of casualties and lack of care)
* Spanish-Moroccan War, 1859-1860

1860s

* Garibaldi's Expedition against Sicily 1860/1861
* 1861-65: American Civil War between the Union and seceding Confederacy
* 1861-67: French intervention in Mexico
* Polish Rebellion 1863-1864
* German-Danish War 1864
* 1864-66: The Chincha Islands War was an attempt by Spain to regain its South American colonies.
* 1864-70: The War of the Triple Alliance ends Paraguayan ambitions for expansion and destroys much of the Paraguayan population.
* Guano War 1865-1866 Spain - Peru, Chile
* 1866: Austro-Prussian War results in the dissolution of the German Confederation and the creation of the North German ConfederationAustrian-Hungarian Dual Monarchy. and the

1870s

* 1870-71: The Franco-Prussian War
* 1877-78: The Balkans are freed from the Ottoman Empire after another Russo-Turkish War in the Treaty of Berlin.
* 1879: Anglo-Zulu War in South Africa.
* 1879-84: War of the Pacific between Peru, Bolivia and Chile.
* Pacific War 1879-1884 Chile - Peru, Bolivia

1880s

* 1880-1881: the First Boer War.
* 1884-85: The Berlin Conference signals the start of the European "scramble for Africa". Attending nations also agree to ban trade in slaves.
* 1884-85: The Sino-French War led to the formation of French Indochina.
* 1886: Russian-Circassian War ended with the defeat and the exile of many Circassians. Imam Shamil defeated.

1890s

* 1890: The Wounded Knee Massacre was the last battle in the American Indian Wars. This event represents the end of the American Old West.
* 1894-95: After the First Sino-Japanese War, China cedes Taiwan to Japan and grants Japan a free hand in Korea.
* 1895-1896: Ethiopia defeats Italy in the First Italo–Ethiopian War.
* 1898: The United States gains control of Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines after the Spanish-American War.
* 1898-1900: The Boxer Rebellion in China is suppressed by an Eight-Nation Alliance.
* 1898-1902: The One Thousand Days war in Colombia breaks out between the "Liberales" and "Conservadores," culminating with the loss of Panama in 1903.
* 1899: Second Boer War
* Philippine-American War 1913 begins

19th century Total War - ad nauseam

[Braden]

See!

Civil War: Total War now looks like a nice large game with multiple campaigns to choose from!

“which have been done over and over again” – With different game systems and engines. To many of us the Total War format is the best style for these types of games and admittedly CA have that pretty much sewn up.

Besides, I’m not playing any of them and I want a Total War version. (takes bat and ball and walks off home)

[Freedom Onanist]

See!

Civil War: Total War now looks like a nice large game with multiple campaigns to choose from!

“which have been done over and over again” – With different game systems and engines. To many of us the Total War format is the best style for these types of games and admittedly CA have that pretty much sewn up.

Besides, I’m not playing any of them and I want a Total War version. (takes bat and ball and walks off home)

Civl War : Total War? Whose civil war? I know whose you mean, but it is only one of many conflicts. It doesn't deserve a TW all to itself or even the accolade of being the headline act of the next TW game. A campaign within it, no doubt, but it is too restricted, too parochial to be the centre-piece of a TW game.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I actually would like to see a TW game from the start of 16th century(New World;exploration;religious wars) to the end of 17th century.

But.. most likely this kind of game will never come. Swiss government will probably say NO.

[Braden]

Civl War : Total War? Whose civil war? I know whose you mean, but it is only one of many conflicts. It doesn't deserve a TW all to itself or even the accolade of being the headline act of the next TW game. A campaign within it, no doubt, but it is too restricted, too parochial to be the centre-piece of a TW game.

Well as originally stated mainly American and English Civil Wars…I agree though only really suitable for an Expansion and not a full game unless you add more campaigns to it and the potential to expand play to a more Global (for American) and European (for English) campaign after completion of the main objectives of each.

Example: In the American CW campaign you complete the game as the South, beat the North and unify North America. Next turn Global Economic and Social Map opens up (similar to ETW’s trade map) where the “New America” can interact directly with South American, European and perhaps even Pacific and Asian theatres.

Similar on the English campaign after “winning” Europe opens up for you…take Cromwell’s New Model Army into France or Spain!

EDIT - Actually it doesn’t matter that much. Its my personal flight of fancy and I hope a Mod Community is listening for that…

Don’t want to detract too much from the fact we want Asia: Total War!

[Freedom Onanist]

Well as originally stated mainly American and English Civil Wars…I agree though only really suitable for an Expansion and not a full game unless you add more campaigns to it and the potential to expand play to a more Global (for American) and European (for English) campaign after completion of the main objectives of each.

Example: In the American CW campaign you complete the game as the South, beat the North and unify North America. Next turn Global Economic and Social Map opens up (similar to ETW’s trade map) where the “New America” can interact directly with South American, European and perhaps even Pacific and Asian theatres.

Similar on the English campaign after “winning” Europe opens up for you…take Cromwell’s New Model Army into France or Spain!

EDIT - Actually it doesn’t matter that much. Its my personal flight of fancy and I hope a Mod Community is listening for that…

Agreed, they would be great campaigns or expansions. I believe the Mod community has already come up with an ACW mod?

Don’t want to detract too much from the fact we want Asia: Total War!

Disagreed. Sorry, but to me an Asian setting all too often means a fantasy one. I mean by that the distorted, romanticised, ingorant view we Westerners have of Asia. Unfortunately the TW series has proven fromt he very firs all too easily susceptibel to the more "fantasy" units. Anyone remember that maniac with an oversized katana able to take on units all by himself in Shogun? If you'll pardon my French, absolute ! That kind of infantile, puerile thing is just way too easy for TW under the guidance of Sega to repeat if they go for an Asian setting. Might as well go for Middle Earth Total War. No doubt in their search for ever greater markets something like this is on the cards - along with a move to console.


No interest whatsoever in it.

[Braden]

Well IF that was the way it took then we’d all be upset.

Yeah, remember Shoguns silly/fantasy units as well but as long as they’re exceptions rather than the normal. Asia would have scope for some truly epic battles and continental scale conflicts…for starters you have the Kingdoms period and the Korean War.

IF done well it’ll be good but you’re looking at the negative here and you could say the same for ANY title/subject selection for CA/SEGA to publish. If you go there immediately then you leave yourself with no options do you?

[Kekvit Irae]

The next Total War I want?
Empire: Total War 1.6 of course.

[AussieGiant]

Rather like the sciences in which you can study universes, planets galaxies and the marco direction, there is the exact opposite. The micro universe.

I believe CA needs to find an event, a period, a war, something much shorter, well defined, and focus their efforts.

Of course, that screams total failure to SEGA and the casual gamer market.

But, NTW is an example.

War of the Roses.

Amercian Civil War.

One of the many war in Europe between 1700 and 1850.

[caravel]

Disagreed. Sorry, but to me an Asian setting all too often means a fantasy one.

Not necessarily. When it comes to "historical accuracy" none of the TW series have been very hot on it. In fact STW was closer to feudal Japan, at least in the general "feel" than MTW or RTW were to their eras.

I mean by that the distorted, romanticised, ingorant view we Westerners have of Asia.

A generalisation. It could also be argued that we westerners have the same "distorted, romanticised, ingorant view" of Europe. Have you ever seen an historically accurate 'historical' movie? Do you consider, Spartacus, Gladiator, 300, Troy, etc, etc to be historically accurate? Was RTW historically accurate?

Unfortunately the TW series has proven fromt he very firs all too easily susceptibel to the more "fantasy" units.

Yes, the whole series.

Anyone remember that maniac with an oversized katana able to take on units all by himself in Shogun? If you'll pardon my French, absolute ****!

The Kensai? He was introduced in the Mongol Invasion ex pack along with the "battlefield ninja". IMHO that's where CA started to go wrong. MTW had the "Hashishin" which were the same as the BF Ninja and many more fantasy units besides. In total STW had about two units that could be considered fantasy units. MTW had lots more, though many people conveniently forget that. Moving on to RTW and the fantasy unit count reaches it's saturation point with chanting druids, screeching women and 10 different types of legionaries, battlefield gladiators, those masked chaps and other assorted nonsense.

So in spite of all that CA got the Roman era right and the Sengoku period wrong because of two fantasy units (three if you include the Geisha) and a bit of abstraction (Noh/Kurosawa influence)?

That kind of infantile, puerile thing is just way too easy for TW under the guidance of Sega to repeat if they go for an Asian setting.

That is not a real argument against CA doing an Asian TW or Shogun II. Using the same logic, R2TW and M3TW would also be a disaster. Games developers have the funds and means to get in the experts (SEGA happen to be an asian company, so I don't see them having much issue finding Japanese historians).

Might as well go for Middle Earth Total War.

And why not?

No doubt in their search for ever greater markets something like this is on the cards - along with a move to console.

Who knows.

[Freedom Onanist]

Asai, what you say is possible. Unfortunately, you fail to convince me that an Aian setting will not simply be a fantasy-fest, over and above anything we have seen to date. STW was the first, since then they have gone further off-piste, mainly to assuage the more puerile demands of a not inconsequnetial proportion of the market. A market segment that absolutely loves all the martial arts, mystical, MongolZ R0x, BS.

A Middle Earth : TW? Yes, I'd rather, nothing wrong with fantasy for fantasy's sake.

[Martok]

Voice of the Camel Lord: This is just a gentle reminder to please keep it civil, folks. I've seen a few posts in this thread that were a bit....heated, shall we say? I realize many of us have strong opinions on this subject (and I'm no exception), but remember to debate the issues; let's stay away from personal attacks please.



As for myself, my preferred settings for a future Total War title remain the same: Ancient China, ancient Greece (especially the Persian Wars and Peloponnesian War), or a fantasy setting.

The latter setting actually holds a fair bit of appeal for me, if for no other reason than that at least CA wouldn't have to worry about historical accuracy. Nagamasa is quite correct in that the TW series has gone downhill in this regard since Shogun's Mongol Invasion expansion pack, with Rome being the nadir (or pinnacle, depending on how you look at it).


Still, though, I'd love to see an ancient China game, particularly if it were set in the Spring & Autumn period. Many potential factions, lots of diplomacy and political intrigue, huge armies, technological innovation....I get excited by the mere possibilities!

[ReluctantSamurai]

I know this is a tad bit off-topic, but I will post my preference in the end.

Someone mentioned the shift to console games and I can foresee CA headed that way in it's quest for ever-increasing sales. I found this little discussion to be interesting:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/25...console-losing

That console gamers can simply plug-in, unbox the game, and start playing without having to invest $$$ in a new rig (you can get a PS3 for less than many high-end graphics cards), or have to d/l the inevitable follow-on patching, speaks volumes.

It would not surprise me one bit to see, in the not-too-distant future, TW being sold for consoles. Whether that'd be a good thing or not will remain to be seen.

My vote would be for an Asia:TW, but given the recent track record for TW games, I would be verrrry hesitant to buy it, if they indeed ever do it. I'm certainly willing to give CA a chance to 'get it right', but I'm not holding my breath

[antisocialmunky]

And CA is going to have to jump through some hoops to patch the buggy thing and ARE.TEE.ESUS. kinda suck on consoles unless you can yell at your dudes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdvrvSqFOGI

[NimitsTexan]

I would like to see a return to Rome. It was my favorite Total War period, after Empire.

[Zenicetus]

As for myself, my preferred settings for a future Total War title remain the same: Ancient China, ancient Greece (especially the Persian Wars and Peloponnesian War), or a fantasy setting.

The latter setting actually holds a fair bit of appeal for me, if for no other reason than that at least CA wouldn't have to worry about historical accuracy.

Yeah, but that's a double-edged sword. Without historical accuracy to lean on as a framework for the game, Ca would have to license an existing fantasy system ("Dungeons and Dragons®:Total War"), or else invent a fantasy system from scratch. That's what Bioware is doing with Dragon Age, and it's what Stardock is doing with their Elemental: War of Magic strategy game. It's what Blizzard did with Warcraft.

It's great when it works, but it's not easy to design a coherent background universe that isn't dumb, silly, or just another Tolkien ripoff. An interesting and challenging fantasy melee/magic system takes a lot of work. How long has Dragon Age been in development now, as Bioware's attempt to ditch the D&D license? Something like eight years?

With historical warfare strategy games, all of that structure comes "free" with a little research, and the programmers can focus on coding the mechanics. Since the main complaint everyone seems to have with CA is the quality of their AI programming (or to put it differently, the ambitious scale of the game compared to what their AI can handle), I think they're better off not trying to design a fantasy world from scratch. Especially since other game companies are already in that market niche with current or upcoming projects. CA has a niche in historical wargaming that they should hang on to.

[Freedom Onanist]

Yeah, but that's a double-edged sword. Without historical accuracy to lean on as a framework for the game, Ca would have to license an existing fantasy system ("Dungeons and Dragons®:Total War"), or else invent a fantasy system from scratch. That's what Bioware is doing with Dragon Age, and it's what Stardock is doing with their Elemental: War of Magic strategy game. It's what Blizzard did with Warcraft.

It's great when it works, but it's not easy to design a coherent background universe that isn't dumb, silly, or just another Tolkien ripoff. An interesting and challenging fantasy melee/magic system takes a lot of work. How long has Dragon Age been in development now, as Bioware's attempt to ditch the D&D license? Something like eight years?

With historical warfare strategy games, all of that structure comes "free" with a little research, and the programmers can focus on coding the mechanics. Since the main complaint everyone seems to have with CA is the quality of their AI programming (or to put it differently, the ambitious scale of the game compared to what their AI can handle), I think they're better off not trying to design a fantasy world from scratch. Especially since other game companies are already in that market niche with current or upcoming projects. CA has a niche in historical wargaming that they should hang on to.

A triple-edged sword? I think the problem we have seen in all the TW games, bar Shogun (maybe?) which took most people by surpise in a setting most didn't know that well, has been the depth of the armchairs a few of the self-appointed "experts" sit in. One man's history is another's fantasy. The little dictum about history being written by the winners really does skew the one's point of view on many things hence all the "CA don't know what they are doing", "CA are anglo/euro centric", "blah, blah", ad nauseam.

If I were at CA I'd be pushing firmly for a fantasy setting, and not LOTR - just as many people with opinions. The creative effort would be well worth it to avoid all the flak about incorrect, under-powered or unfair representations.

[Fisherking]

I have seen some say that a WWII version of Total War is not possible.

I am not promoting a WWII version but I think it is entirely doable. There have already been games that had air, land, and sea in battles so why would it be imposable for CA to make one.

I don't think the current engine would do it but if they had set out to do it I don't see a problem.

But having said that, I hope they do several others before they go looking at something like that.

If I were at CA I'd be pushing firmly for a fantasy setting, and not LOTR - just as many people with opinions. The creative effort would be well worth it to avoid all the flak about incorrect, under-powered or unfair representations.

Nothing is going to stop criticism.

Some don’t like things even before they know what they are.

Some self appointed experts will say they did it wrong even if they make it up from scratch.

It doesn’t matter if they did bugs or dragons or outer space, someone will lash it and trash it.

I think CA knows that already, though...

And what is wrong with LOTR?

Except that there have been a lot, but a good one might come along someday....

[caravel]

I have seen some say that a WWII version of Total War is not possible.

I am not promoting a WWII version but I think it is entirely doable. There have already been games that had air, land, and sea in battles so why would it be imposable for CA to make one.

I don't think the current engine would do it but if they had set out to do it I don't see a problem.

I'm not an authority on history or warfare but IMHO, it's not really possible with the current incarnation of the TW engine. WWII is essentially modern warfare, i.e. squad based combat, not line infantry and cavalry charges. I don't see how the TW engine can represent house to house, street by street fighting or engagements involving armour and air power. There are a variety of sims that already do this, though most of these are very specific. At the campaign level it could perhaps be done, but when it comes to battles no. EVen then it would not be worthwhile IMHO because compaines like Paradox release those kinds of games and from what I've heard are better at it. TW's main selling point was and should always be battles, but sadly if you exclude visuals, these have degraded in quality since the first two games.

WWI is similarly unworkable due to the style of warfare of the time. From WWI onwards (well sometime before that actually) the whole idea of "units" would have to go, necessitating a complete rebuild and redesign of the engine.

[Fisherking]

Well you are right, that there is no way this engine could do it and I am not saying that it is easy but there are games out there that do it and so building one that handles the battles and the campaign is possible.

But like I said, I am not looking for it yet. There are loads of things I would rather see first.

[AussieGiant]

The Napoleonic period up to about 1820 is about as far as this type of game construct and engine can be taken.

It's the last real use of cavalry as part of the combined arms concept before it's phased out. Of course there are exceptions and cavalry was still used up until WWI but it's hard for cavalry to compete against repeating rifles and machine guns.

Unless they want to move to a command and conquer style engine they need to stay in the period before 1850.

[Braden]

The Napoleonic period up to about 1820 is about as far as this type of game construct and engine can be taken.

It's the last real use of cavalry as part of the combined arms concept before it's phased out. Of course there are exceptions and cavalry was still used up until WWI but it's hard for cavalry to compete against repeating rifles and machine guns.

Unless they want to move to a command and conquer style engine they need to stay in the period before 1850.

Totally agree. Unless we are willing to loose the TW style of play we actually like and prefer to many other games out there...CA need to limit themselves in time periods.

Or go Fantasy as already suggested. Being a huge Fantasy fan (LotR, AD&D, White Wolf, Forgotten Realms etc etc), I'm not adverse to it.

Wasn't there an attempt already at a TW "rip-off" style LotR's game?

[Freedom Onanist]

The Napoleonic period up to about 1820 is about as far as this type of game construct and engine can be taken.

It's the last real use of cavalry as part of the combined arms concept before it's phased out. Of course there are exceptions and cavalry was still used up until WWI but it's hard for cavalry to compete against repeating rifles and machine guns.

Unless they want to move to a command and conquer style engine they need to stay in the period before 1850.

Yep. Though I would push the TW a bit further to include the the ACW, even maybe the Franco-Prussian war. It would be interesting to see how the TW engine would deal with steam trains in both those conflicts.

Given the expanded geographic scope of ETW maybe we could hope for a global setting and just argue about dates? So no, Asian/European/Middle Eastern arguments, just when? when would be a good time where most major players would've had a chance to have an impact, given slightly unrealistic movement and logistics capabilities? I'd say an interesting period would be the end of the Middle Ages to up till the ETW era. Europe is fast developping new forms of warfare and the Middle and Far east haven't turned in on themselves yet.

Of course, it would a be adifficult one for CA to do. They probably don't even want to do anything of the kind given the fan base's competing pet hates and loves.

[al Roumi]

Frankly, I don't mind -as long as they do this:

Keep it small, keep it tight, make it work properly.

...but I'm finding it hard ot be excited about another TW game right now.

Plus, what on earth would be the fun in a WW1 battle game? Inching your trench closer to theirs? Lets face it, the campaign strategy side of the game will be shocking compared to the alternatives, eg from Paradox.

[Zenicetus]

And what is wrong with LOTR?

Now I think we're up to a four-edged sword, maybe more. We might have to move to a metaphor like a mace with a bunch of points on it. LOTR:Total War would have multiple strings attached, which could affect the quality of the game:

1) CA would be paying a licensing fee, which could cut into the funds available for programming, artwork, and testing. Unless, of course, the IP is so popular that extra sales would make up for the fee, but that's a gamble.

2) Licensing a closely-held property like LOTR, might mean restrictions from the IP owners on what CA could or couldn't show in the game (violence restrictions, etc.).

3) A popular fantasy IP like LOTR brings with it a rabid fan base, who will pick apart any deviation from canon. And the canon is much more pinned down and formalized than what we know of ancient warfare, at least. Complaints about flaming pigs aside, CA has a lot of slack for what it can show in a game about ancient Rome, Greece, China, or Japan without raising too much of a fuss. Not that many people are either experts in the time period, or care that much.

4) If you license someone else's world, characters, storyline, and melee/magic system, then you give up the potential to expand your own IP into future projects. For the best example of that, see what Blizzard was able to do with the Warcraft franchise.

I think a mix of these factors is what led Stardock and Bioware to build their own fantasy worlds from scratch for their upcoming games. Probably #1 and #4 were the main reasons, since (as mentioned up-thread) users will always find something to complain about, whatever the game concept.

[Seyavash]

Civl War : Total War? Whose civil war? I know whose you mean, but it is only one of many conflicts. It doesn't deserve a TW all to itself or even the accolade of being the headline act of the next TW game. A campaign within it, no doubt, but it is too restricted, too parochial to be the centre-piece of a TW game.

Shogun and NTW are rather restricted as well so there is precedent for it. That being said it doesn't interest me much.

Personally I still hope for an Asia total war the encompasses as much of the continent as possible. Sure you can do just Japan or China, but there is so much else that could be included that is not addressed well anywhere else.

However, one idea I haven't seen here is to go back further in time. Helenistic Greece is nice, but how about Assyria, the Hurrians, Hittites, Babylonia, a properly done Egypt etc?