Why do I hate the Romans...

[Stefan the Berserker]

The Romans destroyed the Cultures of the Iberians, the Gauls, the Albionese and the Cathargians.

They professionally Inquisted Druids, cut down their woods and killed them all. 500 Dinarii and more for every hind that lead to a Druid kill...

Celtic Religion was forbidden and Germanic Religion was forbidden by hard Penalties...

The Tribe of the Ebourons (Gauls) with 100000 members was Slaughtered after one of their leaders tried to kill Julius Caesar. Several Massacres went on also

They thought their Emperors were gods and forced all controlled people to give sacrifice on his Altar.

They enjoid watching people killing each other in Gladiator Arenas.

Every Roman City had a Brothel... and beeing Gay was even admired (Greek lovin&#39...

Their actions were idol to the primitivity of Christianity and the Impirialism of the 1800s aswell...

Call me stupid, not really interessted in it what you call me, but shall they be MORE CIVILISATED than other acient Cultures? Celts and Germanics arn't worse than that

I really don't support the World View that Rome "civilisated" the World

[ShadeFlanders]

Citaat[/b] (Stefan the Berserker @ Dec. 31 2002,14:28)]The Tribe of the Ebourons (Gauls) with 100000 members was Slaughtered after one of their leaders tried to kill Julius Caesar. Several Massacres went on also

You are right but you forget to mention the context. Good old Julius also massacred the Menapiër and Nerviër tribes. Those tribes were Belgae that were a race something between Germanic and Celtic but with a mostly celtic culture.
The reason they were massacred is that those tribes had sworn loyalty to Caesar first and had helped to put down other rebellious tribes. Caesar thought he had a trustworthy ally in Ambiorix, leader of the Nerviër tribe, and left Belgae without huge garrissons. But a few years later Ambiorix bought the alliance of Germanic tribes across the Rhine (enemies of Rome) and of the other Belgae .During winter (also very dishonourable) they tricked one Roman legion in an ambush and destroyed it completely and wiped out another legion in their winter encampments. Caesar that was plotting an invasion of Britain had to return to Belgae with his invasion army and barely managed to put down the revolt (after a tactically brilliant battle on Caesar's part). In the mean while Rome itself was in panic by the swift destruction of two whole legions (and of course the stories were exagerrated). The armies of Rome had shown vulnerability and Caesar knew he had to set an example to the traitors or the rest of Gaul would follow the example of the Belgae. So he slaughtered all the rebels and burned their villages. I would have done the same. Didn't help much though, Vercingetorix soon led the rest of Gaul in a rebellion.
http://www.ualberta.ca/~csmackay/CLA...ar.Gaul.1.html
somewhat more detailed:
http://www.livius.org/caa-can/caesar/caesar05.html

[Stormer]

na the romans are the best, most intresting empire around there tactics and way of life was superb.

[MrJedi]

Quote[/b] ]The Romans destroyed the Cultures of the Iberians, the Gauls, the Albionese and the Cathargians.

They professionally Inquisted Druids, cut down their woods and killed them all. 500 Dinarii and more for every hind that lead to a Druid kill...

Celtic Religion was forbidden and Germanic Religion was forbidden by hard Penalties...

The Tribe of the Ebourons (Gauls) with 100000 members was Slaughtered after one of their leaders tried to kill Julius Caesar. Several Massacres went on also

They thought their Emperors were gods and forced all controlled people to give sacrifice on his Altar.

They enjoid watching people killing each other in Gladiator Arenas.

Every Roman City had a Brothel... and beeing Gay was even admired (Greek lovin'...

Their actions were idol to the primitivity of Christianity and the Impirialism of the 1800s aswell...

Call me stupid, not really interessted in it what you call me, but shall they be MORE CIVILISATED than other acient Cultures? Celts and Germanics arn't worse than that

I really don't support the World View that Rome "civilisated" the World

Somehow, most of that reminds me of the modern world...

[deejayvee]

Quote[/b] (MrJedi @ Dec. 31 2002,10:39)]Somehow, most of that reminds me of the modern world...

Probably because we are still living under Rome's legacy.

[King David]

Get your revenge and download the Patrician mod. Play as the Germans and kick some Roman ars.. I will be adding German Ubii Cav and Infantry on my next update...

[The Marcher Lord]

Actually out of that list I would say they actually only really destroyed the Carthaginian empire and its culture - I mean flattening Carthage and then sowing the ground with salt is pretty final right ? But we still have France (Gaul) and Germany (Germania) surviving on the map as separately identifiable cultures today. Rome tended to favour assimilation and 'Romanisation' rather than outright genocide and I would say, all in all, that we benefitted from the Roman culture (just think of Monty Python's Life of Brian 'What have the Romans ever done for us ? - long list - get the picture ?)

You seem to have some strange prejudices about the Romans. Destroyed other religions - err no - they were actually very tolerant of other religions and simply assimilated them. You don't win people to your cause by slaughtering them all and imposing your own cultural traits. Personally, I find modern religions far less tolerant - bring back paganism I say

[Knight_Yellow]

The romans where bloody great ppl.

Roads, medicine, irigation, police, aqueducts, etc.

The romans where completely obliged to do wat they did since they didnt just kill every1 without a reason they conquered a region then they put local ppl incharge and basically said that they can run the place but uve gotta send them certian goods etc. and if u step outa line well cum back and kill every single thing in this area.

That little policy kept most if not all regions that the romans conquered in line.

they where only stopped after a succesive line of mentaly unstable ceasers witch lead to inner turmoil and civil war.

theyve got my respect anyway.

[deejayvee]

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Jan. 01 2003,22:53)]The romans where bloody great ppl.

Roads, medicine, irigation, police, aqueducts, etc.

"Yes, but besides the roads, medicine, irrigation, police, and aqueducts, what have the bloody Romans ever done for us??"

[Knight_Yellow]

ermmm schools, education, entertainment.

REG why u dressed like a woman????

or

I mean it, if u call me big nose one more time ill take u to the ******* cleaners.

Edit: Like Cat said, no swearing K_Y.

Edited by Ithaskar Fëarindel

[Zauba'a]

What the hell did the Celts and Germanic people ever do that was worth anything compared to what the Romans did?

Bah, they were just wannabe Vikings.

[MacGregor]

Rome wasn't quite all it was cracked up to be. Of course history has been written for the most part by the conquerors so Rome has a lot of hype that wasn't really deserved. Not to say that their achievements weren't great, but it was far from a Utopia.

[Catiline]

It is true that Roman's could be massively brutal and murderous. But so was everyother civilisation of hte Ancient world, and so are most modern ones. There were cities they sacked where htey killed every living creature they found. But that's not so different to droppng a nuke on Nagasaki, the intention was hte same.

Their main problem with hte Druids was nothing to do with Religion, more with hte Druids political activities. The druids were not purely a caste of priests after all, htey were lawyers and politicians, and the key to stirring up resistance to Roman influence. The only religious problem the Romans had with the druids was their practice of human sacrifice.

Everywhere has brothels, it's the world's oldest occupation after all, the idea that the Germans didn't have whores is laughable.

As to homosexuality being admired, so what.

[Catiline]

BTW Knight_Yellow this is kids TV so can you keep an eye on the language please, Monty Python or no Monty Python

[PanthaPower]

A Germans are not that much of a saint either. They tried to take over the world not once but even twice in the last century causing millions of deaths in so many different countries. And about the civilized part, how civilized is it to try kill all the jews without them even carrying a weapon... How civilized is that?

[ShadeFlanders]

Pantha, he didn't say "because I'm German" but he said "because I'm Germanic", there is a difference. For example me and (most likely) you are Germanic as well.
And he never said he loved the nazis, that are dangerous assumptions to make.

[PanthaPower]

Quote[/b] (ShadeFlanders @ Jan. 02 2003,15:33)]Pantha, he didn't say "because I'm German" but he said "because I'm Germanic", there is a difference. For example me and (most likely) you are Germanic as well.
And he never said he loved the nazis, that are dangerous assumptions to make.

Okay, I might have nuanced my reply better. The only thing I want to say is that Romans are bad for killing so many people, Germans are bad for killing so many people, Americans are bad for throwing a bomb on nagazaki without a warning, Spanish are bad for killing most of the american natives, Dutch people are bad for enslaving half of the world, etc.

But I always get a little itchy when I hear someone say "I hate..." when their own race also has it flaws in history.
One other thing e.g. what I cannot stand is people saying that it's their country and that coloured people should leave to their own countries. Most countries (especially north and south america) just "own" a piece of land because they had more bows, guns, tanks, etc. okay. i'm getting a bit off-topic now...

Sorry if I offended anyone.

[Knight_Yellow]

pantha many of the germans, infact 99% of them had nothing to do with nazis or killing the jews most were just soldiers doing their duty.

also many other cultures have committed genocide so stop making it seem as if the nazis r the only "evil" way.

ie. the afganastanish??? (i know thats spelt vry wrong) were tortured and killed etc. for mere thievery.

The romans didnt kill every1 without a reason.

plus the simple fact is that rome was a citystate not a country sos 99.9% of the soldiers wherent roman they would be italians spanyards egyptians etc.

so although by our standards the roman cenate/ceaser was harsh, it was necassary back then.

[fenir]

Actually, Romans brought most of what we know today. Laws, Water supply, Baths, Sewage system, Language etc...note, some of these where actually Hellenic not Latin. to the wider world.

They brought Hellenic Culture and ideas to the world at large, In 200 to 400AD most of the troops in Roman armies where Germanic.

To say the Romans did bad things and killed everything, is to admit to not knowing your history.
To say, because you are Germanic you hate them?? I would say with almost complete confidence that there is not a person alive today in Western Europe and of European Race, that has not got some Celtic, Germanic, and Roman and/or Hellenic blood in them.

Romans did bad, yes, but by who's standard? yours?
That would imply that you are judging a people 2000years ago by todays' standards, which is akin to historical geniocide.
If however you judged the Romans by there time period, they are truely forgiving and a civilisied people. More than any other faction in the west.


As for homosexuality, well only a civilisied people would allow that to happen wouldn't they? As I understand it, Germany allows gays to marry? What are you saying about your own people???
And what about the bothrels in Hamburg? Or Berlin?
Or perhaps German laws forbidding other religons in the 18th century?
Or ignoring there Christian hertige by waging war on nieghbouring countries?

Hmmmmm Sounds like the Roman empire........Ahhhhhh us German aren't civilisied? Bugger


fenir

[Stefan the Berserker]

I think you need more Information on Germanics and celts to understand my essay:

Both cultures developed through the Aryans invading the Megalith-Europe. The Aryans wern't blonde germanic Warriors as Hitler imgined them, the were actually relative to the PERSIANS. HABACS

They lived as normads in the north of that what is now the Iran and had contact to the Persians (logicaly), the Babylonians and the acient Hindi (India). They had the same knowledege about the Stars as the Babylonians, mathemathics like the Hindi and Blacksmiths like the Persians.

Their knowledge and culture was transferred on the enslaved Megalith who lived in Germany, Poland and France of that era. The other Megalith (Finns, Estonians) were pushed into northern Europe. This "Mongol Invasion" of the Aryans took place in 1000 BC

During this the Germanics and Celts became diffrent: The Celts went west into France and their Religion developed more into the direction of its Hindu-like orign. They believed in Rebirth, diffrent Dimensions and the Brahmanism which brought the Druids. The Major diffrence to the Germanics is that they developed the "Brennus" and a Druid Clerus which band the Tribes together as a whole Nation. (As the Romans eliminated these, they could battle the Gauls the FIRST time)

The Germanics stood in Germany and todays Poland (Schlesia, Pommerania, Prussia... Thank you Stalin&#33. In their culture there were no "Druids" as someguys imagine, the status of a Priest was just like the master title and most of them had to do "normal work" to feed themselfes. The Germanics also did not lost the old Megalith cults like the celts did and instead intigrated them as the "Wans". Germanic Culture was highly intigrating its members through the "Thing"...

In 500 BC first the Gauls, then the Germanics learned how to produce Iron from ore. This way not much slowlier than their Mediterranian opponents in Rome. The Germanics additonaly invented the European Steel about 100 AD (Asean steel invented in China earlyer) and the Damsziseing technique to produce Steelswords

I'm getting too long... More infos follow

[Hakonarson]

So what you're really telling us Stephan is that you are jealous that the Italian tribes were cleverer than the Germanic tribes for a couple of hundred years.

And that you're really quite grateful that the Italian tribes bequeathed their culture to all of Europe to make it the wonderful place that you enjoy living in today.

And that yuo completely understand that the Italian tribes were pretty much as bloodthirsty, brutal and bigoted as everyone else was at the time. But that they did it with panache and success, as opposed to the Germanic tribes that just did it in the same boring old style that they'd always done it in.:pat:

Yes - I thought that's what your were trying to say.

[Stefan the Berserker]

I was not trying to say that, I'm trying to say the opposite

The Germanic society was based on many smaller Tribes and fewer Tribal Alliances as the Saxons, the Franks or the Alemannens later. This behaviour is still present in the HRE in MTW and partly even in today's Germany.

To explain gouverment from smallest to highest: The lowest power is the Village Thing, a council taking place all three month, there the villagers elect the Hunno the village chief. The Hunno was made a Knight and was then represantative of the Village in the Council of the Tribal Lord (Jarl/Earl).

These Earls ruled the smaller Tribes and were elected by the Hunnos in the Thing aswell. (Karreer starts as Hunno, with luck next setp Earl) The position of the Earl was not given to a heir, it was rule that after his death (or deselection by the Hunnos) the Title had to be given to another family. Also the Earl is the first position getting tribute from the villagers and beeing allowed to hire Soldiers.

These Soldiers were the Edelings , volunteering men who already owned weapons and were trained. (The Edelings are also the the Origin of the Knights...) The Earls and Dukes organised Blots in their halls (BBQ) that were open to all men. Through this the Interessted Men could directly speak with the members of the Army and make "advertising" for themselfes (Hey dude How to bekum membar uff this Gang?). If this request was going right you could become an Edeling directly (of course, proveing your skill will come before). Beeing an Edeling ment prestige for you and the whole family (or Clan to be precisely), so your canches to become Hunno have massively increased (also best way if you want to get a nice girl ya ). The Armys organised their Edelings in Units of 100 (Divisions),... Arminius introduced massive Manouver training in all 4 seasons, which heavily increased the Strength of these Units.

The Dukes (Agrippins/Fuersts/Koenig) were the big Boss of a tribal Alliance. They held the Folkething as a combination of all Earls in their Empire (arn't so much) and V.I.P. represantatives of the Hunnos (former Earls, important Families usw.) which could also elect another leader but this was now not so often the case as by the Earls. Dukes usually had a massive amount of Edelings, in the early periods from 500 BC to the year 0 these Armys had about 5.000 men usally, with the growth of the population and the uprising miltarism through Romans had build the Limes wall (which cut the conection to the Gauls) these Armys grew up to 20.000 - 50.000 men per Alliance in 300 AD (only Edelings, Farmers and Slaves additionally )

So far about Germanic states...

Now to Germanic culture:

The Center of a bigger village is the Guesthouse (or as we say PUB) were the people could meet, have a cold Beer and talk to each other. It was a magnet to all and even attracted people from the smaller Villages who had no own one... Cold Beer is not easy to get in this time, you needed a special storage to keep it cool and the Guesthouses had them Also you got Met there (Honywine)... Mostly the Germanics used to play with Cubes (Knobeln don't know English word), play "Poker" or a kind of mixture between Football and Rugbee (you may kick or throw the Ball into the Goal) in their Freetime. Also Music, Saga-storys, riding and Myth were very popular acitivities... Women usally went with their men to these events and really liked the Football-Rugbee game as well as riding...(aslike today, staying in the kitchen is a bit boring)

Germanics build Houses just like the people in the Middleages: White Walls with chaulc, old wheat on the roofs, wooden Doors and inside...
Runic signs are written on the Door in hope Wotan is protecting them (Christians do the same: Today Caspar, Melchior and Baltarsar are running around the Block).
V.I.P.s oftenly put their Shields or Huntig trophys (Pigheads or Deerhorns) in the small entrance... Kitchen and Livingroom are one Room, then there is also a sleeping room for all members of the Family. They usally build a new house when the old one was getting to old, a "repair" would be more difficult and more expensive. This way all families had relativly new and good houses

Most villages had Sweater-Hut like you can find them in Finnland and scandinavia today, beeing fresh cleaned was VERY important If were stinking like piss your neighbours will hate you (and this way getting probs in the Thing)

Germanics usally wore Shoes, Throwsers, a shirt, a Wamps, a big Belt and a blue or green Cape. This way not NAKED as some idiots claimed Women wore the same as they did in Middleages too...

Germanic Religion was very integrating and had a few festivals. Their way of showing their respect before the gods was the Uestia Meditation... Going into the woods or the fields they simply sat down and "talked to god", thinking about their live. They oftenly went on journeys to fine and beautiful places that showed them "the power of creation" this for example the Blackforest, the Mountain "Brocken", Waterfalls and small swamps in the north (As a New Zealander you should have no probs in understanding that, in the time of the germanics Germany was as beautiful as your green Isle). The Germanic Priests made a Calendar through watching the Stars (like Druids did) and pointed the Julfestival (Christmas)at the longest Night of the year and Easter on the begin of spiring also Midsommer is pointed in the mid of Summer (logicaly). These festivals have been absorbed by the Christianty and have no Hebrew or Roman Origin The Eggs and Rabbits on easter a symbols of live and the rebirth of the land (Eggs = birth, Rabbits = Sex), even the christmas-tree has a meaning: It stays green in Winter so it became symbol for Surrvive Acctuly Easter is the festival of Freya, the godess of Love

To the Germanic culture living in us:

The festivals Easter, german Carneval, scandinvian Midsommer and Christmas are festivals coming from the germanics (Halloween and Sylvester comes from the Celts, was once one festival). Also you eat with knife and fork, like the germanics did, romans used a pick. You usally sit by eating, romans layed down on their belly. We usally like to stay on toilett alone, romans liked conversation there (public toiletts in rome hat place for 20 ). Gays arn't seen as absolutly normal by germanics and us, roman even thought it is honor to be fucked by one of their Leaders. We drink germanic Beer, romans hated Beer. Most of us speak germanic languages: English, German, dutch, danish... Most behaviour rules today are coming from the Celts and germanics, not from the Romans

To Romans in us:

Romans are indeed a massive part of the population today in France (this is why they have a roman language and not a celtic one). But as far as this belongs Germany, England and the other germanic countries: Remember Dark Age the romans have been chased off Germania and been crushed in their own lands Germany is acctually having no ethinic group that is relative to romans, and the English have simply chased off or killed everthing they found when they captured the country. The Romans have already been pushed into Gallia through the invading Picts so... Scandinavia acctually has never seen a roman...

If we are fair I give you 5% ethnic importancy of the romans in Germanic coutries today through the French. But this is as good as unimportant. In Medieval they are indeed important for the English, but today they have more ethnic connection to the Celts and we Germans have acctually a higher connection to the Slavs...

My Essay is:

1. Accept that the Germanics and Celts are as important for Europes history as the Romans
2. Accept them as high cultures and not as Barbarians
3. We should learn from them instead of bashing them, learn from your Roots

If there is a Celt expert please add infos in the same mass as I did, I'm not the expert in their sector.

[ShadeFlanders]

The one thing I argue with you is that you try to compare (and equalise) the Romans with the pre-invasion germanic tribes.
I would rather argue that only after the fall of the Roman empire Germanic culture slowly became the most dominant culture in the world. This is remarkable if you see where Germanic culture comes from (-> Dark Ages).
But even the French are still greatly influenced by Germanic culture, most notably in their political history: after all Frankreich means "empire of the (germanic) Franks". Although in this case the name is a bit out of context.

[Shahed]

Personally i have little admiration for any race or nation ON THE BASIS that they subjugated another. The Greeks and Romans were somewhat pioneers in this regard. the rest of the world followed suit, i guess. Also my 2 cents feel that the Romans and Greeks are understandably overglorified in Occidental culture.

[Hakonarson]

Stephan most of that good stuff you post dates from well after Roman times - not contemporary with it at all.

And when it was contemporary with it it tended to be concentrated with the more prosperous tribes that had considerable contact and trade with....ROME Or at least Roman Gaul and Germany.

Certainly Rome borrowed and stole ideas from Germany and Gaul - and in return they had ideas borrowed and stolen from them.....but Rome was master of the Mediterranean LONG before it conquered Gaul or any of Germany.

And it achieved this with armies that used swords based on a Spanish model, chain mail first seen in Gaul, Pila and Shields (Scuta) introduced by its Etruscan kings, and military organisation invented by the Samnites(legions and cohortes).

It fed its armies with grain from Egypt and Africa and half its "Roman" troops were "Latins" and other non-"Roman" Italians.

You should follow your own advice and take pride in your Roman roots as well as your Germanic ones.

[Rosacrux]

The Graeco-Roman culture is the basis of the western civilization. So much is considered quite common knowledge and certainly is not prone to questioning.

But the truth is that the world is evolving and even though the Greeks and Romans (I put them together, because Rome modeled itself after Greece and Romans did a great deal in spreading the Greek culture and science throughout the world) did laid the foundation, all the people and cultures they affected, did add their own contributions to the great sheme of things.

I wouldn't go as far as to call the Germanic tribes "barbaric", but the fact that they tried to adopt the Roman cutlture, and eventually called themselves Romans (the Gothic tribes, for instance, that conquered the western Roman empire) should say something about the cultural gap.

As for ethnic roots go... well, taking a look at the English people today should teach you some things: Celtic, germanic (Angles, Saxones) germanic again, but of the northern variety (Norse, Vikings) Romans, Pikts - and we are still in the 12th century. The mixing is so darn heavy, that distinguishing ething groups nowadays is really ridiculous.

[Stefan the Berserker]

The thing that makes me angry is that the Romans are overglorified, as you already said.


I know enough about all roots whether it is Celtic, Roman, Slavic or Germanic.

The Dark Age tribes and the acient tribes are indeed diffrent. But I marked 300 AD as the latest example for Acient. Through Dark Age the development heavyly increased (in changes of Culture, not getting more intelligent) and the Germanic Invaders took influence on Europe and the other way around. The Way I discribed them logically existed before

It makes me really pissed off that the Germanics and Celts arn't made part of our Historical Education in School. There are a few reports about them and lots of books, but what use does this Information have if it isn't put in mind of our Community?

We could make start a poll and ask people about Ogham, Runes, Uesetia, Asatru etc. you'll see how small the answers will be

Celts drank tea, for example. Who knew that before?

[ShadeFlanders]

Actually Rosacrux recent DNA research in England has shown that the English are 80% germanic (Anglons and Saxons). They are genetically closest related to to the Frissians in Northern Holland (which were historically Saxons I believe). Irish, Scots and Welsh are closely related to one another but not to the English. Researchers believed that the Germanic invaders refused to let the conquered Celts have children, thereby slowly creating geno-cide.
Same observations were made for the Flemish and (I think) the people in the west of Germany (which was Roman territory): about 80-90% Germanic.
But genetics are inferior to culture so it doesn't matter much.

[Stefan the Berserker]

The West-Fresians live in the Netherlands, the East-Fresians live in Saxony. From Texel to Juist Isles and the west of Saxony if Fresian land. I was there, unlike the Franks don't like to be called Bavarians the Fresians don't like to be called Saxons. That the English are very closely relatives of the Fresisans is logical, the Anglo-Saxons also ruled the Fresians

The Celts on the British Isles arn't relative to the Celts from the continent... Got a report somewhere, will get it

[Nord]

Why I love the Romans:

Sexy rectangular shields, sexy helmets with sexy neck protection, sexy pilums, somewhat sexy swords, sexy colours, sexy discipline and... oh yeah, they pretty much just ruled (literally)

+ some testudo and other really cool stuff