Quintili Vare, legiones redde! - or Varrus, give me back my legions!

[anubis88]

An amazing thing happend to me today in my Romani campaign... It's the year 202 BC, and i pretty much have the possesions Rome had at the end of the 2nd Punic War... In the po valley, i must for about 20 years now reppel Barbarian Invasion, and i never had a problem with that, except maybe in the forests around Mediolanum, since the visibility really sucks out there... So i decided a year ago, that it's time to take Massilia from the Arverni, to make it a legit Client kingdom. I created a new legion to guard the Po valley, and i used my consular one to open another front and attacking the Arverni at Massilia. My new legion Consisted of 1950 men, the regular 2 hastati 2 principes, 1 triarii, accensi velites and Equites Romani, general, 1 pedites extraordinarii, + a few gallic allies, nothinh much.

Then the Sweboz decided it's time to attack me again. They had a decent army of 3000 ,men, within 2 units of those wild wolf guys, whom i never thought before, and an 7 star general. I thought that my Po valley legion could handle them.

I thought wrong.

They moved around my forts and attacked my army on open field. I saw later that my general was morose, having -2 morale, but i usually leave those generals in charge, since the battle AI usually really sucks.

I prepared for battle in the usual quinqux formation and got ready... The Sweboz attacked, they overran my flanks, (nothing to panick about usually) and suddenly my whole right flank collapsed!!!! The pedites extraordinary and later even the Triarii routed like some lower class infantry. The wolf guy with their general completly defeated the Hastati and Principes on that flank and half of my army started to rout. On the other flank things seemed alarming as well, so i had no other choice to retreat ( kinda roleplaying, i doubt any roman general with his trait would charge the battle line instead of fleeing)

The result of the battle. The Sweboz lost less then 150 men, while my survivors were less then 300. The entire Po valley is now ready to be plundered by the 2 Sweboz fullstacks (another one just came to my borders). I'm trying to assemble as many man as i can, but i just shipped 2 legions to Iberia, ( where the sitiuation with the Lusotanna is dire indeed, since i have no decent units to repair my losses, and now Gader and Mastia are Besieged by the King and Prince of the tribe with uber armys of gold chevron Ambakaros)

I think the Teutonic and Cimbri invasions came a houndred years to soon for me.
The battle was the first!?! battle i lost as the romans in 70 years of this campaign, but i guess it can almost be compared to Cannae IRL.

I finally got to a place where my roman campaing will become a challenge for the first time. Of course i could let a few cities be taken and then kick their asses with new legions, but that's not how i role...

I hope the post isn't too long, but i just wanted to share my first defeat, well not defeat, complete rout in the campaign.

Did anyone alse experince something similar? Having the AI beat you so badly on M battle difficulty?
Beat you so badly that IRL your faction leaders would start screaming in panic?

Please due share your experiences

[Macilrille]

Your own personal Arausio (a defeat that dwarfed Cannae and inflicted by the Cimbrii and friends) WTG

Sweboz does that to civilised factions and Gauls

It is the Ulfhednir, they are a scary bunch www.ulfhednir.dk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arausio

[anubis88]

Yeah it looks more like Arausio, but i choose Cannae since i'm 100 years away from reforming my army, and carthage never invaded the peninsula.

[Ca Putt]

Sweboz does that to civilised factions and Gauls

+1

Sweboz are always good for a surprise when you play civilized factions, they have some evil AP units and their bulk is more courageous than one thinks at first.
they utterly loose to Archers and especially horse archers tho.

[IrishHitman]

Sweboz does that to civilised factions and Gauls

Only if the civilised factions are stupid enough to leave their archers at home...

[anubis88]

Which they usually were, for one Rome rarely used them during the Republican times

[athanaric]

Ouch. Such a defeat would terribly irk me as a player... But it's nice to hear that the AI hires Worgozez.
Suebi are perhaps the second most underestimated faction, after Saba.

[Macilrille]

Ouch. Such a defeat would terribly irk me as a player... But it's nice to hear that the AI hires Worgozez.
Suebi are perhaps the second most underestimated faction, after Saba.

By who? They definately have a large following here and is the most popular Barbarian faction to play.

I do not think I have ever suffered such a defeat BTW, it must be the Scare units, I find that when I use them- or especially using the large Stone Projectors as Rome my enemies rout almost on contact. Which is annoying for the lack of cavalry in Roman and Sweboz armies disallows me from hunting down a massive enemy force.

[anubis88]

The AI has gone crazy in my campaign.

I attacked the Royal lusottanan army and won, however i lost 80% of my army!!!! Thankfully the Luso General decided in the middle of the battle that he and a few units should retreat, when i was almost broken and fled, so i could win the battle.
I guess it's really hard to fight against these chevron-up armies... Especially if their full of Elites. I almost lost another another battle now against the Arverni near Massilia, they had 5 generals in the stack and i lost about 40% of my army. They will soon attack me again, as another huge army is nearby.

On a more releated note, i DESTROYED the Sweboz army that kicked my ass. I was a little more prepared this time, and didn't let the AI surprise me.

Now i must concentrate on the other two fronts, since i cant bring reinforcements so far away in time...

The campaign has definetly become awesome. I guess it will become boring if i don't stabilize my borders soon. Also i don't have much money since Carthage keeps building ships so i need to sink them that they don't land on sicily...

Though, though campaing....

[Scutarii]

Chevrons make a massive difference.

On a whim I decided war with Rome as Quarthadastim would be a good idea.

I brought my Iberian vets down to Sicily and invaded from the south upwards.

One stack, mercs and some boats to retain stuff and I conquered the Romani pretty quick.

The stack I used had 6 units of 7 exp Liby-Phoenician Infantry. The AI ALWAYS runs its entire army into my flanks and placing three of them on each flank meant that they just took the charge and ground through whatever came at them. Elite Africans and Sacred band need retraining more often than the Liby-Phoenician vets did...

Chevrons matter.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Chevrons do matter. The toughest units with lots of chevrons are elite phalanxes. Playing as the Arche, I built my royal army under a two star commander replete with the typically well balanced Seleukid elite force. My general, 1 TAB, 1 Hypaspistai, 1 Peltasti Makedonikai, 1 Argyridaspidae, 2 Pezhetairoi, 2 Kleurochoi Phalangitai, 1 Armored Indian Ele, 1 Prodromoi, 1 Hetairoi, 1 Lonchophoroi Hippeis, 2 Kretan Archers, 1 Thorakitai, 1 Theurophoroi, and a unit of Merc Hoplitai and Merc Celtic Swordsmen. I decided to test this uber army against Pontos which had been losing a war badly against the relocated Arverni/Galatians. They were down to Pergamon and Nicomedia although the Galatians had been throwing armies against that town for some time now unsuccessfully. I decided to take this army out first to ease my conquests.

Well as I approached Nikomedia the army came out to attack me. 10 star Pontic faction leader with 2 units of gold chevroned Chalkaspides, silver chevroned Anatolian Hillmen, silver chevroned skirmisher units, and silver chevroned Pantodapoi Phalangitai. Well, I almost lost the battle... The Chalkaspidae would not die and butchered my phalanxes. The hillmen hit my armored infantry hard. The skirmishers made my elephants nearly irrelevent since they couldnt approach the rear of his line. In fact the skirmishers beat back my cavalry several times. The only reason I won the battle is because I set my Hypaspists oh his general and they finally pulled him down from his horse. Even then most of the phalanxes refused to break and the Chalkaspides fought to the last man.

In the end, my royal army which probably cost 30000 a turn to upkeep had to retreat from Anatolia without taking a single town.

[athanaric]

By who? They definately have a large following here and is the most popular Barbarian faction to play.

By numerous people who claim that "Barbarians rout easily" etc. Anyway, I bet these guys are all on your ignore list, so you probably didn't notice them...


Regarding the chevrons, there's nothing better than bribing a few depleted gold-chevron guys for a low amount of mnai and retraining them to full strength. Doesn't work all the time though.


Brave Brave Sir Robin: How come you weren't able to shoot the Hillmen and skirmishers with your Kretans? Usually they get massacred by archers, especially the axemen...

[IrishHitman]

German barbarians don't rout easily.
Luckily, they die easily, so I don't find it a significant problem.

The only massive defeat I've ever had was a siege against Massalia.
When I finally got inside their walls, I suffered massive casualties to break their forward defence troops, and ran out of time before reaching the city centre to finish off the rest.

Luckily, all the units survived with tiny numbers each, and returned to Rome to retrain, just in time to catch the start of the Macedonian War.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Brave Brave Sir Robin: How come you weren't able to shoot the Hillmen and skirmishers with your Kretans? Usually they get massacred by archers, especially the axemen...[/QUOTE]


I did target the skirmishers with my Kretans hoping to get rid of them so my elephants could reign free. Unfortunately he had about 4 units of Peltasts which fare relatively well against arrows and about 4 akontistai as well. Just too many warm bodies for the arrows.

[Macilrille]

By numerous people who claim that "Barbarians rout easily" etc. Anyway, I bet these guys are all on your ignore list, so you probably didn't notice them...

Anyway, I find Gauls rout easily while Getai and Zweboz are much tougher. At least as Romans. Carthaginians rout easily as well, while AS hold firm for longer.

I seem to notice though that as any faction loose more and more battles to me it starts routing easier, even with same unit type and more experience on them. And even against new Marian legions with no XP yet.

Is this;
Just me?
Coincidence?

[bigmilt16]

anubis, what did you ever do about those germans? did you ever push them back.

[athanaric]

Anyway, I find Gauls rout easily while Getai and Zweboz are much tougher. At least as Romans.

Hardly surprising if you check morale and discipline of their units. Getai and Swêboz are actually among the strongest factions in this respect (especially morale).

I seem to notice though that as any faction loose more and more battles to me it starts routing easier, even with same unit type and more experience on them. And even against new Marian legions with no XP yet.

Is this;
Just me?
Coincidence?

Perhaps you've refined your tactics without noticing it yourself? As time goes by, one gets better at timing charges etc..

[Macilrille]

I know, I am a big favorite of Sweboz morale and the Sweboz in general.

[ziegenpeter]

I know, I am a big favorite of Sweboz morale and the Sweboz in general.

Ain't we all?

I wonder how the chevrons thing will be used in EBII

[anubis88]

anubis, what did you ever do about those germans? did you ever push them back.

Yeah I did... The po basin is safe for now... I have 2 legions patrolling the area, and i kicked the bastards out... They keep coming back for more, but i won't let them surprise me anymore...

They gave me quite a scare though...

Now i've also somewhat pacified the South border of Hispania so things are going back to normal...

[Macilrille]

I just esxperienced the dreaded "9-Chevrons-plus-another-XP-=-0-XP"- bug :-(

[Atraphoenix]

Anyway, I find Gauls rout easily while Getai and Zweboz are much tougher. At least as Romans. Carthaginians rout easily as well, while AS hold firm for longer.

I seem to notice though that as any faction loose more and more battles to me it starts routing easier, even with same unit type and more experience on them. And even against new Marian legions with no XP yet.

Is this;
Just me?
Coincidence?

I can support these but I think when you keep winning the generals or royal court get some negative traits. At the moment AS keeps sending endless armies although I like early blitzing It is not the time for mesopotamia I am just starting to reform gov.
after I finished in all cities in persia then I will overrun mesopotamia, AS never stops attacking until you capture or sack Antiocheia. after this Ptolemies does the same.
But I got tired of They siege I wipe out vicious circle. in every turn they siege at least one of my city. I send my HAs and they run like children . I missed my first battles where they were about to fight to death.

[athanaric]

after I finished in all cities in persia then I will overrun mesopotamia, AS never stops attacking until you capture or sack Antiocheia. after this Ptolemies does the same.
But I got tired of They siege I wipe out vicious circle. in every turn they siege at least one of my city. I send my HAs and they run like children . I missed my first battles where they were about to fight to death.

I'm experiencing exactly the same thing. I'm already at Egypt's door though.

[Atraphoenix]

Just look at this...

If I finish Seleukeia, Yellow death is waiting for me.
I think after I conquer mesopotamia, I will FD with AS to keep them as a buffer state between me and Yellow Death.
Also to give Carthage some money would keep my tired army at bay for a while until I manage to get reformed gov.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[SwissBarbar]

Seleukeia has not stone walls?

[seienchin]

7 Star Generals are just badass.
I invaded minor asia(Hold by Koinon Hellenon) with my makedons yesterday an boy. I won every battle with ease and then I had to fought only a small hoplite army with a 7 star general in a wood...
My army only consisted of mercenraries and skythian horse archers (8 Units) and 4 Phalangitia.
The battle nearly run out of time because:
1. All my horse archers routed... 8 of them (With Charge 34) charged their general in the back and... got routed after a while...
2. Then the only thing happend was, that their 4 hoplit units and like 5 levies like akonkistai atacked my phalangitai uphill and well...
Even the akonkistai fought to the last man. Man was that unhistorical BS
Anyway thanks to EB I know what it feels to only have 3 or 4 star generals and fighting 7-10 badasses all the time.
I mean they add their stars to the stats of their units

[Atraphoenix]

no she has not for 9 years dating from the beginning of the campaign.
and after my assaults I think she was too busy on investing her money on military but failed of course.