Corinthian Helmets

[Amon88]

Hi there,
first i want to say that this is a great mod for RTW, but there is only one little thing missing for the Hellenic armies, and that is the "Corinthian Helmet", i know they were not used widely in this time, but there could be one or two units still using them.

[G. Septimus]

Well, Corinthian Helmets are in Strategos- Total War mod for RTW made by Old King Cole
There's a bunch of them.
I can't wait to download it!!!

[A Very Super Market]

An RTW unit is homogenous. Giving a solder the Corinthian helmet would mean giving the entire unit the helmet, and for every unit of that type in existence too.

They can give the odd soldier a Corinthian in EBII, however. But perhaps hoplites would be a bit more strict about helmet code. Pretty sure there was a performance difference.

[Hax]

Corinthian helmets had quite a negative effect on the hearing capabilities of a soldier on the battlefield. There was a Greek general and statesman who initiated a series of reforms, though his name I have forgotten.

Tellos Athenaios can tell you more, I'm positive ^_^

[Ludens]

first i want to say that this is a great mod for RTW, but there is only one little thing missing for the Hellenic armies, and that is the "Corinthian Helmet", i know they were not used widely in this time, but there could be one or two units still using them.

Do we have evidence that it was used in the 3rd century BC at all? I know the Italian variant was still in use (you can see it on the Trairii), but AFAIK the original had fallen well and truly out of style.

[Amon88]

"This helmet remained in use well into the first century AD" - Wikipedia

[Owen Glyndwr]

*EDIT* Checked the context for the above quote.

[A Very Super Market]

Italo-Corinthian helmets are different from Corinthian helmets. I think the Polybian Triarii use them in EB.

[MeinPanzer]

"This helmet remained in use well into the first century AD" - Wikipedia

Corinthian helmets were not used after the 5th c. BC. They would be entirely anachronistic in the EB timeframe.

[Ca Putt]

they are probably a bit like old cars, they look ultra cool and are widely present in pop culture but in many aspects inferior to modern cars :D probably some people still wore Corinthians in the 3. century bc. ouut of fashion reasons or to be conservative. problem is that It cuts you pretty much off the surrounding world as you hear only the inside of a can, you see only the guy you're supposed to stab in the face and the protective effect was not as good as that of later, more user friendly models.

so although most people today drive around in (somewhat) new cars once in a while you see an old man in a racecar from 1950(or a poor farmer with a pre war truck :DD he inherited from his father) which are totally anachronistic today ^^

[mountaingoat]

like people modify old cars with new parts ... is it not possible that the old helmets were also modified for "modern" combat?

[-Praetor-]

Yes they were. They were called Chalcidian helmets.



And then from Chalcidian to Attic:



It is not like they dissapeared over night. They just evolved.

[Julius Augustus]

[QUOTE=Ca Putt;2358378]protective effect was not as good as that of later, more user friendly models. QUOTE]
Hmmm? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they look like they would give very good protection, as they cover more of your head with a layer of metal. Maybe losing the ability to hear and see well negates the advantage given by the amount of coverage.

[MeinPanzer]

they are probably a bit like old cars, they look ultra cool and are widely present in pop culture but in many aspects inferior to modern cars :D probably some people still wore Corinthians in the 3. century bc. ouut of fashion reasons or to be conservative. problem is that It cuts you pretty much off the surrounding world as you hear only the inside of a can, you see only the guy you're supposed to stab in the face and the protective effect was not as good as that of later, more user friendly models.

so although most people today drive around in (somewhat) new cars once in a while you see an old man in a racecar from 1950(or a poor farmer with a pre war truck :DD he inherited from his father) which are totally anachronistic today ^^

Regardless of the merits or disadvantages of the helmet, if you think this helmet was worn during the EB timeframe, you need to produce evidence to that effect.

[Megas Methuselah]

And you might want to bring something along to argue your point other than that old cow, wikipedia. Your own opinion and basic logic is worthless without evidence.

[Ca Putt]

i did not say that they were widely used during the eb timeframe but probably once in a while you stumbles across a hoplite wearing one, my point was that Zeus did not come to earth and command: "thou shalt not wear Corinthian helmets in public!"
that said I do not(in anay way) opt for including corinthian helmets in EB1 and would not promote that it would be one of six helmets in EB2. I just would not shout up "ANACHRONISM!!!!!" when I would spot some unit occasionally wearing one in EB2.

And you might want to bring something along to argue your point other than that old cow, wikipedia. Your own opinion and basic logic is worthless without evidence.

well, I have to admit I sit at home and doubt I will be able to afford a long trip into hellenic grounds in order to excavate real proof. I make use of my common sence as I have some whereas I don't have ancient Inscriptions or C14 dated stuff.

[Ludens]

"This helmet remained in use well into the first century AD" - Wikipedia

Firstly, that sentence refers to Italo-Corinthian helmets, which aren't Corinthian helmets but merely look like them. Secondly, I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a source. The articles are of varying quality and not everything is sources properly. In this case the author apparently collected all the material from one book, and his description of the Italo-Corinthian helmet as a Roman "corruption" of a Greek idea suggests a bias on his part.

[Amon88]

And you might want to bring something along to argue your point other than that old cow, wikipedia. Your own opinion and basic logic is worthless without evidence.

Evidence... here:
http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/

"Macedonian Helmet with griffin crest belonging to Alexander the great dated 330 B.C"

"Thessalian Helmet with snake crest dated 280 B.C"

"Macedonian Helmet dated 280 B.C"

I think they would not be totally out-dated by 270 B.C.
Some people who had inherited them from their fathers and so would still use them, cos i heard new helmets were expensive at that time, so im presuming that they would rather use the old one than to spend money on buying a new one.

Long story short, they were not used WIDELY, but they were still used.

[G. Septimus]

yeah, new helmets must be expensive. They would use the helmets from they're fathers.
but the triarii also use corinthian helmets right??

[abou]

1. I would be curious who dated those helmets because I strongly question the accuracy. There isn't anything that particularly states where they have gotten their sources or on whose authority they rest.

2. Those are replicas they are selling, not actual helmets.

3. They make some pretty ludicrous claims on their site, such as:

Achilles Full size Helmet
Ancient Greek life size helmet, from Thessalia.
Reputedly the helmet worn by Achilles at the Trojan war, dated 1100 BC

And that is along with the idea that another helmet was owned by Alexander. I honestly think the website is more of a way to attract people who are just getting into history or "n00bs" into buying their products.

And you might want to bring something along to argue your point other than that old cow, wikipedia. Your own opinion and basic logic is worthless without evidence.

Evidence... here:
http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/

"Macedonian Helmet with griffin crest belonging to Alexander the great dated 330 B.C"

"Thessalian Helmet with snake crest dated 280 B.C"

"Macedonian Helmet dated 280 B.C"

I think they would not be totally out-dated by 270 B.C.
Some people who had inherited them from their fathers and so would still use them, cos i heard new helmets were expensive at that time, so im presuming that they would rather use the old one than to spend money on buying a new one.

Long story short, they were not used WIDELY, but they were still used.

[Epimetheus]

Umm… correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these guys wearing Corinthian-style helmets?

[Bucefalo]

Those guys seems to be wearing Chalcidian helmets.

I´d personally also don´t mind to see 1 corinthian helmet model among the traditional hoplites, if only for some more variation and having some soldier with that very stylish old helmet. But i understand that it may not be too historically accurate, as the latest i´ve read of them being used is the 4th century BC.

[The General]

Considering that in EB (/R:TW) every model in a unit is identical this would mean that en entire unit would be wearing Corinthian helmets, and in an army this could mean that thousands of men would be running with antiquated, largely abandoned helmets. Considering how ahistorical and unrealistic this would be, I think the current EB policy is the right one.

In EBII however, a unit can have three (iirc! might very well be wrong here) different variations of armaments. Having one third of one particular unit could be used to depict the use of Corinthian helmets by those who could not afford or for some other reason would not use more modern, better helmets, as this would keep the proportion down to a more reasonable limit. Nonetheless, I won't be disappointed if the corinthian helmet makes no appearance in EBII.

[mcantu]

well...thats a not so subtle phallic symbol if i ever saw one

[MeinPanzer]

Considering that in EB (/R:TW) every model in a unit is identical this would mean that en entire unit would be wearing Corinthian helmets, and in an army this could mean that thousands of men would be running with antiquated, largely abandoned helmets. Considering how ahistorical and unrealistic this would be, I think the current EB policy is the right one.

In EBII however, a unit can have three (iirc! might very well be wrong here) different variations of armaments. Having one third of one particular unit could be used to depict the use of Corinthian helmets by those who could not afford or for some other reason would not use more modern, better helmets, as this would keep the proportion down to a more reasonable limit. Nonetheless, I won't be disappointed if the corinthian helmet makes no appearance in EBII.

If you're going to argue the "old helmet being occasionally reused" angle, then where are all the people arguing that hoplites should be wearing Illyrian helmets? They were just as outdated as the Corinthian by the EB timeframe, but they at least survived among the Illyrians, while the Corinthian (not the Pseudo-Corinthian) disappears altogether.

The simple fact is that while it can be conjectured that the someone could conceivably have worn a helmet more than 150 years old by the beginning of the EB timeframe, there is not a shred of evidence for anyone doing so. And while we have evidence of helmets being passed down through a few generations, 150 years is too long to reasonably have done so.

The only reason this ever comes up is because people think the Corinthian looks cool, and they will argue any way possible for its inclusion.

[The General]

If you're going to argue the "old helmet being occasionally reused" angle, then where are all the people arguing that hoplites should be wearing Illyrian helmets? They were just as outdated as the Corinthian by the EB timeframe, but they at least survived among the Illyrians, while the Corinthian (not the Pseudo-Corinthian) disappears altogether.

The simple fact is that while it can be conjectured that the someone could conceivably have worn a helmet more than 150 years old by the beginning of the EB timeframe, there is not a shred of evidence for anyone doing so. And while we have evidence of helmets being passed down through a few generations, 150 years is too long to reasonably have done so.

The only reason this ever comes up is because people think the Corinthian looks cool, and they will argue any way possible for its inclusion.

Seems like you took it as if I was for the inclusion of corinthian helmets in EBII.

I am not.

[Ibrahim]

Those guys seems to be wearing Chalcidian helmets.

because it is.

[Skullheadhq]

that "proof" is from a site trying to sell you some helmets, I wouldn't call that proof