Borderlands

[naut]

So this is a game I've been hearing a lot about, but have no clue what it actually is. Anyone care to enlighten me?

[LeftEyeNine]

From what I've seen in the trailers and around, it's basically a Bioshock in post-apocalyptic setting with co-operative multiplayer taste of Left 4 Dead so as to ensure the sustainability of the lifetime of itself.

It for sure copies a lot however is one that I eagerly await to see.

[Crandaeolon]

I've been keeping an eye out for this one as well, AFAIK it's a co-op FPS with Diablo-esque elements (Stats & skilltrees, item collection.) set in a post-apocalyptic setting.

[Meneldil]

Looks like fun, even though I doubt it's anything like Bioshock given the available screens and informations. More like a mix of Fallout and L4D

[TinCow]

Unless it gets horrid reviews, I'll probably pick it up for the co-op aspect. My wife and I like playing co-op shooters with each other, but those are few and far between on the PC.

[LeftEyeNine]

Looks like fun, even though I doubt it's anything like Bioshock given the available screens and informations. More like a mix of Fallout and L4D

Said Bioshock because game has basic RPG elements thrown in as well, being a shooter in the first place.

[Lemur]

So does it require a monthly subscription?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

So does it require a monthly subscription?

As far as I can tell, no.

[Beskar]

Imagine Left for Dead means Fallout World with Bioshock elements with Team Fortress 2 graphics.

Did I miss anything out?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I still don't see where the Bioshock aspect comes in. Just because both have (not closely related) trait systems doesn't mean you can just group them together. Same with L4D - just because games have co-op doesn't mean they're the same genre or anything alike...

Personally, I'd probably call it first-person Diablo with co-op set in a Mad Max post-apocalyptic future. The Diablo bit covers the leveling and loot-getting.

[LeftEyeNine]

Ok then let's have the most intellectual discussion on earth about who is the ultimate genre guru and win prizes.

To me, you can never and ever design a FPS which can belong to RPG genre, 'cause the primal need for action will always pop out as a stumbling block for the feel of naturality need that RPGs are famous for. It can't be some role-playing where you have to kill swarms of enemies in order to proceed to your goal.

So, so as to benefit from the RPG-loving creme population, you throw in a retarded skill system where you can shoot faster, damage more or block better etc. (amaaaaaazing) and there you have something you can market as a RPG-based FPS.

Fallout 3 or Bioshock were of the same kind, all at various distances to each other (naturally), yet still within the borders of the same circle.

Apparently, I can group them all and you don't. What's it then ?

[TinCow]

To me, you can never and ever design a FPS which can belong to RPG genre, 'cause the primal need for action will always pop out as a stumbling block for the feel of naturality need that RPGs are famous for. It can't be some role-playing where you have to kill swarms of enemies in order to proceed to your goal.

There's a middle-ground genre called Action RPGs. Those are RPGs that have most of the story stripped out of them and are instead mainly combat inside a RPG structure. Examples include Ultima Underworld and the Icewind Dale games. I wouldn't say that Borderlands is an Action RPG, but that middle ground does exist; it doesn't have to be all one thing or all the other.

[Furunculus]

Imagine Left for Dead meets Fallout World with Bioshock elements with Team Fortress 2 graphics.

Did I miss anything out?

no, that about covers it.

[LeftEyeNine]

There's a middle-ground genre called Action RPGs. Those are RPGs that have most of the story stripped out of them and are instead mainly combat inside a RPG structure. Examples include Ultima Underworld and the Icewind Dale games. I wouldn't say that Borderlands is an Action RPG, but that middle ground does exist; it doesn't have to be all one thing or all the other.

Hack'n Slash and/or action oriented RPGs, which you say is Action RPG, are sub-genred of RPG games.

Fallout 3, Bioshock, Borderlands or whatever. They are mainly shooters and I don't see the benefit in trying to distinguish at what distance Bioshock and F3 stand against each other.

[TinCow]

Hack'n Slash and/or action oriented RPGs, which you say is Action RPG, are sub-genred of RPG games.

Fallout 3, Bioshock, Borderlands or whatever. They are mainly shooters and I don't see the benefit in trying to distinguish at what distance Bioshock and F3 stand against each other.

Hmmm... I'm as critical as anyone about Fallout 3, but I'm really not in agreement that it's the same as Bioshock. Fallout 3 may be a bit thin on the storyline, but it's got far, far more story and choices to be made than Bioshock. I equate Bioshock with something like STALKER: pure shooter with some character customization aspects. There really isn't anything significant to make a choice about in Bioshock except for the good/evil choice on ADAM and other than the final cutscene, that's essentially a character customization choice. In contrast, there are certainly many choices to be made in Fallout 3, even if they are often shallow choices.

[LeftEyeNine]

Hint: Hey, I'm a die-hard Fallout fan. It should have connections to where I'm placing F3 near Bioshock with a frown on my face right away.

[al Roumi]

Hmmm... I'm as critical as anyone about Fallout 3, but I'm really not in agreement that it's the same as Bioshock. Fallout 3 may be a bit thin on the storyline, but it's got far, far more story and choices to be made than Bioshock. I equate Bioshock with something like STALKER: pure shooter with some character customization aspects. There really isn't anything significant to make a choice about in Bioshock except for the good/evil choice on ADAM and other than the final cutscene, that's essentially a character customization choice. In contrast, there are certainly many choices to be made in Fallout 3, even if they are often shallow choices.

Farcry 2 is another interesting hybrid. It had too much story for an FPS (IMO)! For the sake of immersion I had to spend the whole time driving, walking, "sailing" around to my next objective. Some clutz in the Crytek design team thought FPS players would want the sometimes boring journeys interspersed with action and inserted enemy patrols which, for me, made the travel even more of a chore.

What does irritate me about Fallout 3 -compared to more RPG type games (e.g. Baldurs gate 1&2)- is that even though you can use your character's skills and choices to avoid certain tasks, you don't always get as much xp for doing so. Maybe it's me and my latent completionist desires but this makes me go for the whole slog-a-thon of exterminating every enemy, hacking every computer and ferrying every nick-nack of loot back to base.

Mass effect was good IMO, it had a genuinely balanced and thorough set of options based around the story (ok, only 2 real options Paragon/Renegade).

I never played Fallout 1 or 2, but I did play Fallout tactics -alot. Fallout 3 doesn't seem too far from that game (in spirit) to me.

Sorry, do realise this has kind of gate-crashed your deep discussion with some semi-relevant ramblings...

[econ21]

To me, you can never and ever design a FPS which can belong to RPG genre, 'cause the primal need for action will always pop out as a stumbling block for the feel of naturality need that RPGs are famous for. It can't be some role-playing where you have to kill swarms of enemies in order to proceed to your goal.

The number of action RPGs where you have to kill swarms of enemies is depressingly high. Stalker is a good FPS that manages to create a wonderful "feel of naturality". System Shock 2 and Deus Ex are FPS type hybrids that also manage similar degree immersion, with the addition of fine story telling. All three differ from standard FPS in toning down the swarms of enemies and sometimes giving you alternatives to fighting them (esp. Deus Ex).

Vampire Bloodlines is an interesting RPG that, in its last act, starts to fall foul of the enemy swarms and turn into an FPS at the end. But the first half to three-quarters of the game make it one of the best RPGs ever, IMO. For that matter, I am not sure how we define an RPG. In computer games, it seems to be about levels, loot and stats - which seems rather beside the point to me. The essence to me is playing a role and some games - like SS2, Deus Ex and to some extent Stalker - make you really feel you are playing a role, immersing yourself in the experience. I guess a be

I never played Fallout 1 or 2, but I did play Fallout tactics -alot. Fallout 3 doesn't seem too far from that game (in spirit) to me.

I'd strongly recommend FO1 and FO2 (play them in order). They don't feel that much older that Fallout tactics, but are much better IMO. Admittedly, they are a different genre - FOT is a squad based tactics game; FO1 and FO2 are role-playing games, but among the best ever made. FO3 has a lot of the feel of the older Fallout games in terms of exploring and surviving in a hostile world. But I found the story and quests just fell far short by comparison. I have the same issue with Morrowind and Oblivion. Bethesda makes amazing game worlds, fine character building systems and solid combat, but lousy stories, dialogue, characters and quests.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The folks over at RPS have written a lengthy verdict on Borderlands. Caution: contains some (fairly tame) swearing.

They rather liked it, though (and it's the nature of honest games reviewing, maybe) they spend a more time on the games flaws than it's successes.

[Lemur]

Ars Technica has a review up. Short, readable, and generally positive. Most intriguing line:

This is a game with midgets that fire shotguns that knock them on their butts as well as masked madmen who attack you with axes by rushing towards you screaming while on fire.

[Meneldil]

I don't think there's any RPG element to Bioshock.

The whole good/evil choice is pretty lame (though overall the story and background kick ***), and there's no character customization. Upgrading your guns, improving spells and getting more total health don't turn a FPS into a RPG.
Fallout 3 does have many RPG elements, Bioshock doesn't.

The only reason why Borderlands might be described as similar to Bioshock is for the distopian world, not for the gameplay mechanics IMO.

Overall, the game looks interesting. I might give it a try.

[LeftEyeNine]

I don't think there's any RPG element to Bioshock.

Yeah yeah, that's absolutely what I have a problem with. This is what is claimed.

Neither F3 nor Bioshock can ever qualify to be an RPG.

[Lemur]

Neither F3 nor Bioshock can ever qualify to be an RPG.

I'm not over-fond of Fallout 3, but it's unfair to deny that it's an RPG. Stats and levels? Check. Branching dialogue? Check. Quests? Check.

It may not be a very good RPG, but its heart throbs with D20 dice.

[Beskar]

The only reason why Borderlands might be described as similar to Bioshock is for the distopian world, not for the gameplay mechanics IMO.

There is some spells your character can use, in Borderlands. Might be a reference to that.

[LeftEyeNine]

I'm not over-fond of Fallout 3, but it's unfair to deny that it's an RPG. Stats and levels? Check. Branching dialogue? Check. Quests? Check.

It may not be a very good RPG, but its heart throbs with D20 dice.

Fallout 3 was Fallout 1, it would be a RPG.

Fallout 3 is the so called sequel to the former two, hence not a RPG.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I'm not over-fond of Fallout 3, but it's unfair to deny that it's an RPG. Stats and levels? Check. Branching dialogue? Check. Quests? Check.

It may not be a very good RPG, but its heart throbs with D20 dice.

It's also got a bloody silly combat system, does that count?

[Monk]

Fallout 3 was Fallout 1, it would be a RPG.

Fallout 3 is the so called sequel to the former two, hence not a RPG.

I think i follow your reasoning: If a duck walks, quacks and flies like a duck, it still isn't a duck unless when killed and cooked it tastes the same as every other duck?

[Krusader]

Been testing this a bit and enjoyed the singleplayer portion and can imagine the Coop being fun. Although two big gripes from me so far.
First, you can't skip movies, which is annoying. Secondly, the menus and parts of interface are too much consolish. But overall, it will be worth my money.

[Papewaio]

This is a game with midgets that fire shotguns that knock them on their butts as well as masked madmen who attack you with axes by rushing towards you screaming while on fire.

So like happy hour in the backroom?

[naut]

Been testing this a bit and enjoyed the singleplayer portion and can imagine the Coop being fun. Although two big gripes from me so far.
First, you can't skip movies, which is annoying. Secondly, the menus and parts of interface are too much consolish. But overall, it will be worth my money.

Co-op is much better than singleplayer, as the Hunter and Siren become actually useful. The interface is diabolically irritating. Lazy port.