Net Neutrality Paradigm Shift

[MerlinusCDXX]

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Any figures on just how many people don't have any choice?


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CR

(content not relevant to my post edited by me)

Myself, for one, although, to be fair, in most areas it isn't "no choice", but, rather, a highly limited choice between two monopolies with approximately equal technological capability at the "industry standard" level, and various "technologically challenged" (non-) competitors. My example; I have the choice between my cable company (monopoly), and the phone company's DSL service (another monopoly). Of the "lower tier" options, I could use dial-up (horribly outdated) or satellite internet (which has horrible upload speeds and is ridiculously overpriced in this area.). It's like this in most US telecom markets that aren't tied to the Government, the financial sector, or the entertainment industry, but there are some exceptions for a few very large cities without the aforementioned ties. As was mentioned earlier about the choices most US residents have (in the quoted article), it's not so much that you have no choices, it's that, of the choices you do have, the only viable ones are with monopolies in their respective primary fields (telephone and cable). It's more an illusion of choice.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Why, WHY? There's no real reason for it. Yes there is. There is no problem like what neutrality people say will happen, Yes there is, I mentioned the scheming of the music and movie industries. but even they concede has not happened yet. Not me, and I doubt the majority has. How is a government regulator from an age before color television supposed to adequately write a rule about something that hasn't even occurred yet? Well, I tend to try to improve my government instead of letting rot and using that as a justification for my ideology. Tell me, one of you neutrality supporters, what company is currently managing bandwidth to certain sites? For the most part, ISP's are not bold enough to block a specific site (with the exception of maybe 4chan), they simply manage bandwidth over us all with a "unlimited" bandwidth usage package that includes a bandwidth cap.

The internet as we know it, that wonderful thing of communication and commerce, came about without any government regulation Correlation does not mean causation., and thank God for that. Government interference would have undoubtedly resulted in a less useful internet. Opinion. Regulations and diktats would have skewed the economic incentives behind the internet to favor some special group or crack down on what some congressman didn't like. Opinion.

And thank goodness the internet has been an ignored market, which is often the same thing as a free market. No, I specifically recognized a distinction. A free market has companies competing for your money with certain limits and restriction to prevent an abuse of customers in the transaction process. An ignored market is a market that has not been tapped by companies yet for marketing, advertisement and direct selling of their products. It has been the free market that has allowed for such spectacular innovation in the internet. Markets had nothing to do with it, most innovation on the internet has been from tech enthusiasts that attempt to create a better and more enjoyable internet experience for free, hardly a free market, more close to a communist society if anything. And now you want to regulate it? yes, that is my position. You want government restrictions to start on what the internet can and cannot do? No, this is a scarecrow and/or you are purposely misrepresenting me. I want the government to regulate what power companies have over the supply and freeness of the internet we are receiving so our greatest tool for a truly educated and knowledgeable populace is not in the hands of the RIAA, MPAA, IBM, Microsoft, etc... My goodness, that's like crying out for the internet to be chained to an iron ball! Not really, your hyperbole is dampened by the fact that you have taken "giant corporations and interest groups" and instead have replaced it with a generic "internet" which is completely silly.

If this rule passes it will only be the start of regulation. Biased speculation. Every two-bit congressman will see it as a chance to pass some law or regulation to help or hurt some special cause of his, like not selling booze online on Sundays, or prohibiting out of state companies from selling certain items in order to protect some in state company. Biased speculation.

The ISPs aren't attempting to manipulate anything - they are attempting to ensure that their limited bandwidth is able to serve all their customers. That's a normal business practice. here is where we probably have completely different ideologies regarding the internet. I see the internet as a utility that every man, woman and child should have, to be put in the same category as water and power. It is absurd for us to be content with having our water limited by half or only allowed to power our house for a half a day so some other person have it for the other half. We demand that everyone in this country have the basics to survive in our modern world, water and electricity we recognize but I and many others recognize the internet as another one.

Net neutrality would take away from ISPs being able to run their businesses efficiently, because of an imagined problem. Not imaginary. Good grief, people, government regulation of this type will stifle innovation because it will limit how ISPs can run their business. What innovation? ISP's bring internet to us, thats it. Edison brings electricity to its consumers, thats it. What innovations has government regulation stifled within the electric companies? If it wasn't for that evil government, would we be all running things on wireless electricity by now?

Keep your accursed 'consumer protection' away from me Ok, you can go back to 1900 and relive "The Jungle" if you want, others like our seat belts and lack of human fingers in our meat. - I would not want to have an internet where the government limits what a business can do! It's not going to do that. It is because of the freedom of the internet that it is so useful today. Which is now threatened by corporations. If you limit the ability of companies to do what's best for their networks, you will limit the entire future of the internet! Companies do not decide what is best for their networks, they decide what is best at getting and keeping more money in their pockets. If an electric company decides its best for their network to dismantle that expensive 30 mile stretch of infrastructure that runs from the main city to that small town of 5,000 are we to be ok with that?

Talk about limiting the future of the internet, why is it that the greatest things on the internet are the ones being criticized and threatened by large companies with complete control over all other aspects of our lives. The news aggregate websites that are now providing hundreds of millions of people with free and uncensored information are being threatened by Big News, the greatest tools for sharing data across the world is being threatened by Big Music and Big Movie, there are so many other examples. You get my point, unless that is, you forget to take the Glenn Beck glasses off and misunderstand my position again.

CR

My words in bold.

[a completely inoffensive name]

TADA! prime example!
Hundreds of organizations had their internet service turned off last night after the US Chamber of Commerce strong-armed an upstream provider, Hurricane Electric, to pull the plug on The Yes Men and May First / People Link.

[Xiahou]

Reading comprehension fail. Let's try a hypothetical and see if it makes more sense:

1. Johnny gets his high-speed internet tubes from Time Warner Cable
2. Time Warner Cable has a cross-marketing deal with NBC
3. Johnny wants to watch Glenn Beck
4. TWC has every right to slow or block Fox News while promoting its partners
5. Therefore, by arguing against net neutrality, a popular host like GB may be working against his own interests

De facto net neutrality made the internets what they are today. If you want to go back to the walled garden model of AOL and CompuServe, be my guest, but don't tell me that the rest of us have to go there with you.

Your argument is that since the industry has done just fine on it's own 'de facto', we clearly need to enforce neutrality via ham-fisted regulation that's full of unintended consequences.Brilliant.

Your scenario has zero chance of every happening.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Your argument is that since the industry has done just fine on it's own 'de facto', we clearly need to enforce neutrality via ham-fisted regulation that's full of unintended consequences.Brilliant.

Your scenario has zero chance of every happening.

It has done fine on it's own, up until now. Now it is threatened by corporations who seek to control what they have been ignoring for over a decade.

[ICantSpellDawg]

1. Johnny gets his high-speed internet tubes from Time Warner Cable
2. Time Warner Cable has a cross-marketing deal with NBC
3. Johnny wants to watch Glenn Beck
4. TWC has every right to slow or block Fox News while promoting its partners
5. Therefore, by arguing against net neutrality, a popular host like GB may be working against his own interests

De facto net neutrality made the internets what they are today. If you want to go back to the walled garden model of AOL and CompuServe, be my guest, but don't tell me that the rest of us have to go there with you.

I was under the impression that the interwebs were like a truck? I agree. This isn't a partisan issue, this is an issue of commerce. I wish drudge would stop treating it like the Democrats are running the regulation racket. Republicans need to jump on board this proposal to make it the best it can be.

[Crazed Rabbit]

It has done fine on it's own, up until now. Now it is threatened by corporations who seek to control what they have been ignoring for over a decade.

And what's changed? Were all ISPs mom and pop stores until this year?

Also, what you knock as opinion and speculation is simply what has happened in other industries. It's not bias or anything; it's what will happen if regulations begins.

And markets had everything to do with the internet as we know it. People came up with all sorts of wonderful innovations because doing so made them money. Every great site is in it for the money, even if there are some who provide a few utilities for free. This rule prevents companies from running their businesses as they see fit, which hampers their ability to make money, which means they aren't inclined to create as much as they would have otherwise.

An ignored market is a market that has not been tapped by companies yet for marketing, advertisement and direct selling of their products.

I'm sorry, you surely cannot be saying the internet has been an ignored market according to your definition. Are you saying companies haven't used the net for marketing over a decade?

And the internet is not a utility like water and heat; you don't need it to live. It's a luxury. It there's one thing I'm sick of, it's some new innovation taking off, and then people claiming that said innovation is now a luxury and demanding control of how a company provides it.

And I take it you don't understand how firms work, if you're saying companies that merely provide a service like ISPs can't innovate. Have you heard of 3G networks? Streaming video to cellphones?

You talk about how evil corporations are going to destroy the internet. Here's the thing; corporations like profit. Profit comes from consumers, and consumers only consume if they're happy with the product. Why is the belief that corporations are so mindlessly stupid and will destroy their business for a few short term profits so entrenched in some people? Why would they 'seek to control' it by making people not want to buy access from them? There's no reason for companies to be doing any of these nightmare tactics net neutrality people shout about.

You want to solve make sure this continues not to be an issue? Get the (@&$(@$ government out of regulating who is able to supply broadband to people so that there's more competition. Then if any company starts shortchanging people they can just switch providers.

Oh, and one last thing; do me a HUGE favor and reply to quotes outside of the quote box. It's really a PITA to read the way you posted it. Thanks.

CR

[Xiahou]

It has done fine on it's own, up until now. Now it is threatened by corporations who seek to control what they have been ignoring for over a decade.

Examples please. Tell us all when businesses that control the Internet backbone have banned specific content from a provider because they refused to pay their e-protection money?

People have been crying about net neutrality for years now- pointing to unrealized threats that need to be regulated. Here we are in 2009, have any of their fears been realized? Nope. Yet people still scream for regulation.

Net neutrality, still completely unnecessary.

[a completely inoffensive name]

And what's changed? Were all ISPs mom and pop stores until this year?

No, companies have only realized recently the power that the internet provides consumers and they are afraid of it and are now attempting to stop it.

Also, what you knock as opinion and speculation is simply what has happened in other industries. It's not bias or anything; it's what will happen if regulations begins.

Examples please.

And markets had everything to do with the internet as we know it. People came up with all sorts of wonderful innovations because doing so made them money. Every great site is in it for the money, even if there are some who provide a few utilities for free. This rule prevents companies from running their businesses as they see fit, which hampers their ability to make money, which means they aren't inclined to create as much as they would have otherwise.

I disagree completely. I don't know what else to say to this since this is just my opinion against your opinion because neither of us have any proof.

I'm sorry, you surely cannot be saying the internet has been an ignored market according to your definition. Are you saying companies haven't used the net for marketing over a decade?

Well let us see:
Hulu only came about in April of 2008, after years of T.V. companies attempting to remove all traces of their programming from the internet instead of capitalizing on the ability of good shows to be passed around fast.
How many years has the music companies been suing teenagers instead of adapting? Oh yeah, at least 5 years and continuing.
How long ago was it that iTunes finally made their music internet friendly AKA with no DRM? Oh yeah, 2007.
How long has the internet been around? Mid 1990s!?!

And the internet is not a utility like water and heat; you don't need it to live. It's a luxury. It there's one thing I'm sick of, it's some new innovation taking off, and then people claiming that said innovation is now a luxury and demanding control of how a company provides it.

You don't need electricity. Read up on survival manuals and live like every did until the beginning of the 1900s. I guess electricity is a luxury as well and we should be happy with whatever we have.

And I take it you don't understand how firms work, if you're saying companies that merely provide a service like ISPs can't innovate. Have you heard of 3G networks? Streaming video to cellphones?

Ummm? Expanding and upgrading the strength and speed of their network is an innovation? I guess the bar is set low when it comes to innovation.

You talk about how evil corporations are going to destroy the internet. Here's the thing; corporations like profit. Profit comes from consumers, and consumers only consume if they're happy with the product. Why is the belief that corporations are so mindlessly stupid and will destroy their business for a few short term profits so entrenched in some people? Why would they 'seek to control' it by making people not want to buy access from them? There's no reason for companies to be doing any of these nightmare tactics net neutrality people shout about.

The underlined part is completely wrong. The belief isn't that corporations are stupid, otherwise why are we acting as if they are dangerous? I believe (and history has shown) that corporations will do what ever makes them money, both short term and long term and they will force the consumer to like it by not giving them any other option or other manipulations of the market (such as through corrupt and rigged government bills).

Ok in regards to the second to last sentence in that paragraph, pay attention here so i can go over this:
People have to buy the internet from one ISP because of monopolies in their region.
The corporations wants to control the internet by forcing ISP's to do their bidding such as cutting off the internet of people suspected of piracy for instance.
People won't like this, but continue anyway because there is a monopoly. Otherwise, this whole thing wouldn't be possible.

You want to solve make sure this continues not to be an issue? Get the (@&$(@$ government out of regulating who is able to supply broadband to people so that there's more competition. Then if any company starts shortchanging people they can just switch providers.

And here I agree with you! I would love at least 4 different companies to choose from all across the country and there certainly are government laws rigged in favor of such regional monopolies for us to remove. However history teaches us that the free market naturally comes back to a monopoly or a collusion filled oligarchy of companies and that the correct path is a two pronged attack of breaking up companies too big as well as creating safeguards for the protection of American citizens when the government fails or delays in breaking up the next generation of Big Business.

Oh, and one last thing; do me a HUGE favor and reply to quotes outside of the quote box. It's really a PITA to read the way you posted it. Thanks.

Will do.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Examples please. Tell us all when businesses that control the Internet backbone have banned specific content from a provider because they refused to pay their e-protection money?

People have been crying about net neutrality for years now- pointing to unrealized threats that need to be regulated. Here we are in 2009, have any of their fears been realized? Nope. Yet people still scream for regulation.

Net neutrality, still completely unnecessary.

Umm, see the link I posted in one of my earlier posts. The US Chamber of Commerce (not at all a part of the US government) forced an ISP to shut down the internet for supporters of the "Yes Men" an anti globalization group that humorously held a fake Chamber of Commerce news conference declaring that their policies against climate change have been dead wrong and will now help in stopping climate change.

[Xiahou]

Umm, see the link I posted in one of my earlier posts. The US Chamber of Commerce (not at all a part of the US government) forced an ISP to shut down the internet for supporters of the "Yes Men" an anti globalization group that humorously held a fake Chamber of Commerce news conference declaring that their policies against climate change have been dead wrong and will now help in stopping climate change.

Yeah, about that... 2 points:

1. It had nothing to do with net neutrality and everything to do with the DMCA.

2. Even still, the issue was resolved in their favor without additional regulation...

This isn't the first time a Yes Men site has found itself targeted by a DMCA complaint brought by a large corporation. The Yes Men have in the past received DMCA notices from Exxon, Dow Chemical, DeBeers, and the New York Times. In each case, the the Yes Men (represented by the Electronic Frontier Foundation) refused to comply, and prevailed.

So do you have any actual examples?

[Lemur]

So do you have any actual examples?

Google "traffic shaping" and you'll find plenty. At the moment, it's all about throttling Bittorrent, which sucks if you download such illegal things as Europa Barbarorum, Linux distros, Asus drivers, or WoW updates.

Comcast has been known to mess with packets on their network. Last year, they stood in the middle of a firestorm thanks to traffic shaping. Comcast was caught red handed using TCP resets to block traffic based on protocol, the top issue was BitTorrent traffic.

The issue got worse when, after denying it at first, Comcast came clean and mostly admitted to the traffic shaping, but essentially said they couldn’t tell people about it because they would circumvent the process. They defended the traffic shaping by comparing it to a traffic jam, where a car is slowed from entering the freeway for a moment, not blocked from entering it entirely. They also added that the press and blogosphere would keep them honest, as one of the reasons for the FCC to take no action.

P.S.: "Traffic shaping" is legal in Canada. Do you want to be Canada? Why do you love maple syrup and hate freedom?

-edit-

A little more background on Comcast and their shapely traffic.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yeah, about that... 2 points:

1. It had nothing to do with net neutrality and everything to do with the DMCA.

2. Even still, the issue was resolved in their favor without additional regulation...So do you have any actual examples?

Umm, part of the point of net neutrality is to prevent the interest group/corporation from being able to force ISPs to cut off the internet in the first place so....

[Xiahou]

And what happened to Comcast, Lemur? Do they still block torrent traffic?

Their attempt was pretty much total failure anyhow, as people quickly discovered how to circumvent their filtering. But, I think the topic of how ISPs- or even if they can- deal with bandwidth hogs is more interesting that the topic of net neutrality in general (your ISP is gonna block youtube!).

Hopefully, everyone realizes that bandwidth is not limitless. Your average user doesn't use that much of it, but a small percentage of users can and do take up massive amounts of bandwidth. Should an ISP be able to close ports used by bandwidth intensive applications like torrents? Most users don't use torrents, and those that do can slow things down for other users and adversely affect their surfing, ect. An alternative would be flat download limiting- which in my experience draws just as many howls of protest as port blocking. What to do?

[Lemur]

And what happened to Comcast, Lemur? Do they still block torrent traffic?

In Canada, where it's the law of the land, they sure do. Why do you love hockey and lumberjacks?

I think the topic of how ISPs- or even if they can- deal with bandwidth hogs is more interesting that the topic of net neutrality in general

Actually, I'd pair this up with the enforced local monopolies/duopolies, a subject which I don't think I've seen you address.

[Xiahou]

In Canada, where it's the law of the land, they sure do.

Who cares about Canada? I thought we were talking about a proposed regulation in the US..... In the US, Comcast's policy was overruled by the FCC.

Umm, part of the point of net neutrality is to prevent the interest group/corporation from being able to force ISPs to cut off the internet in the first place so....

No, sorry. Net neutrality would do nothing to stop people from sending out DMCA take down notices nor would it stop ISPs that knuckle under and comply without contesting the issue. To put it another way, if a company is notified they're hosting a site that has illegal content, net neutrality won't stop them from taking it down. You're dealing with completely different issues.

[Lemur]

Who cares about Canada? I thought we were talking about a proposed regulation in the US..... In the US, Comcast's policy was overruled by the FCC.

*Facepalm*

Yes, it was overruled ... by the FCC ... based on the idea: " 'Subscribers should be able to go where they want, when they want, and generally use the Internet in any legal means,' outlined FCC chairman Kevin Martin in a related statement."

... which sounds an awful lot like ... I dunno, what's a good term for the idea that people who pay for bandwidth ought to be able to use it as they see fit without traffic shaping or filtering? Somebody help me out here. There must be a phrase that describes this point of view. Something that rhymes with "bet duality." Hmm. I'll think of it at some point.

So you're opposed to the FCC enacting a policy ... that you praise the FCC for acting upon ... oh, I give up.

[Xiahou]

oh, I give up.

Maybe that'd be best.

You're agitating for regulations to be implemented. The example you dredge up was overruled by the FCC in 2008. What are you whining about again?

We need net neutrality now!
Why?
Look what Comcast did!
The FCC already overruled that.
Exactly, that's why we need net neutrality regulations!

[a completely inoffensive name]

No, sorry. Net neutrality would do nothing to stop people from sending out DMCA take down notices nor would it stop ISPs that knuckle under and comply without contesting the issue. To put it another way, if a company is notified they're hosting a site that has illegal content, net neutrality won't stop them from taking it down. You're dealing with completely different issues.

No, sorry. Net neutrality regulation would stop the ISP from shutting down someones internet based on a companies complaint without any judicial oversight or approval. It's not completely different issues, if the RIAA tells your electric company to shut down your electricity because you are using it for illegal copying you can bet they will get their ass sued as well as the electric company if they comply, yet it is ok to shut down that person's internet? If an ISP is notified from the actual government not a corporation looking for teenagers to punish then yes that would be allowed no matter what.

Waving DMCA or whatever justification they fabricate in everyones face does not allow a company to do whatever the hell they want.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You're agitating for regulations to be implemented. The example you dredge up was overruled by the FCC in 2008. What are you whining about again?

We need net neutrality now!
Why?
Look what Comcast did!
The FCC already overruled that.
Exactly, that's why we need net neutrality regulations!

We need to improve national security!
Why?
Look what those terrorists did!
But we managed to catch them right before they detonated the nuke in NY.
Exactly, which is why we need to improve our national security to make sure it doesn't get to this point.

I swear, its like you don't care how messed up the legislation is as long as the judicial makes sure the right thing is done in the end. "Look how messed up the law is that allowed Comcast do even attempt that!" "But the judge made the right decision, so it's all good, why are you complaining?" Talk about

[Lemur]

Look what Comcast did!
The FCC already overruled that.

Based on what philosophy and what principles? Why are you in favor of the practice of net neutrality, but dead set against the policy? Like ACIN said, it's as though you like being defended from foreign enemies, but don't want anybody making the armed forces a fact of policy. 'Cause that would be, you know, big government. Which is bad.

You also appear to be pivoting from point to point, moving on as quickly as possible as each position is disproved. "Show me an example of harm!" Examples given. "Those don't matter, 'cause net neutrality won in the end!" What about Canada? "That's Canada, which passed a law against net neutrality, so it can't posibly be relevant!" Say wha? "You don't get it!" Seriously, your position appears to be fixed, with the reasoning for the position scattered about like decorations.

Also, note that you love the series of tubes videos, while blithely walking past what Ted Stevens was arguing. His reasons for opposing net neutrality were about as coherent as your own.

Let's not forget that the playing field is not static, and that telcos will be working their little lobbyists to the bone in an attempt to recreate the Canadian system here. That should be blindingly obvious to anyone whose position is not an idée fixe.

In recent years, however, major telcos have pressured lawmakers to take a different viewpoint. As the Internet has assumed an ever-greater role in business and our daily lives, ISPs claim they have the right to adopt an active role in shaping the traffic that flows over their networks. They claim such interference will benefit network security, improve customer experience, and stimulate the free market. But if we want to see what the Internet would look like if the telcos get their way, we need look no further than the current situation on mobile networks -- and it's not a pretty picture. [...]

Mobile network providers have long maintained a higher level of control over their services than traditional ISPs do -- because they can. Only certain devices work on certain carriers' networks, and carriers routinely disable features on those devices if they don't like their implications. And it's all perfectly legal.

By comparison, Congress has taken an active hand in the regulation of terrestrial networks since the breakup of Ma Bell in the 1970s, when lawmakers sought to curtail monopolistic practices in the telecom sector. But existing regulations were designed mainly for voice calls. Unless Congress takes specific measures to limit the powers of ISPs soon, expect the telcos to move steadily toward a service model like the one the mobile carriers enjoy now.

ISPs have already demonstrated a willingness to limit network access for specific applications. Typically they claim they do it because the applications consume an inordinate amount of bandwidth, in violation of network usage policies. But last year, the FCC found that Comcast had engaged in widespread blocking of the BitTorrent protocol, even in cases where no network congestion was present. In the absence of specific guidance from Congress, such cases will only proliferate, and the FCC's authority to regulate them will continually be called into question.

Yup, it's the Comcast decision again, the one in favor of net neutrality, which, in a leap of dizzying illogic, you claim proves that net neutrality is unnecessary.

[Xiahou]

Yup, it's the Comcast decision again, the one in favor of net neutrality, which, in a leap of dizzying illogic, you claim proves that net neutrality is unnecessary.

No, you're the one who wants to see regulations passed without being able to point to a single case where the current system in place hasn't sorted out any problems. I ask for examples to support your claims of a pressing need, and you show me ones that have already been resolved. That does not help your case.

I wasn't even going to reply to ACIN's example, because it was nonsensical. What you are proposing would be akin to agitating for the PATRIOT ACT, if our intelligence community had broken up the 9/11 plot without it.

Seriously, your position appears to be fixed, with the reasoning for the position scattered about like decorations.

All I've asked for is some examples of problems that net neutrality regulations would fix if passed. You've shown none. We haven't even started arguing the merits of the issue- there's no need. You've failed to show any justification for it. Trying to drag examples from a different country just seems desperate.

No, sorry. Net neutrality regulation would stop the ISP from shutting down someones internet based on a companies complaint without any judicial oversight or approval.

No, I'm sorry- it would not. Whether or not web content is legal under the DMCA is a completely separate issue from traffic shaping and net neutrality. If you can cite anywhere in proposed net neutrality legislation where your position is supported- I'd love to see it.

Umm, part of the point of net neutrality is to prevent the interest group/corporation from being able to force ISPs to cut off the internet in the first place so....

No, it's not. ISPs trying to shut out competitor's services has already been found to be a violation of antitrust regulation. And in your example, much like Lemur's, the issue was resolved without passing new regulation.

People have been talking about how we need net neutrality legislation immediately for at least the past 7 years. It hasn't passed, and not only has the Internet not collapsed into itself, but we still can't seem to find an outstanding issue that it would solve despite the allegedly dire need for immediate reform. If you two think that it's a good idea for the congress to pass regulation without a demonstrable need for it.... well, you're entitled to your opinions, but I'm tired of dancing in circles over it. Find some current examples that haven't already been addressed by the existing system and then you can tell me all about how proposed regulation would be a panacea for it. Til then.....

To anyone else who's still reading this thread, here's a recent WaPo editorial on the dangers of net neutrality and over regulation of the Internet.

[a completely inoffensive name]

And in your example, much like Lemur's, the issue was resolved without passing new regulation.

Here again is your nonsensical logic: "Courts said no! Problem solved, NO MORE BAD GOVERNMENT!"

People have been talking about how we need net neutrality legislation immediately for at least the past 7 years. It hasn't passed, and not only has the Internet not collapsed into itself, but we still can't seem to find an outstanding issue that it would solve despite the allegedly dire need for immediate reform. If you two think that it's a good idea for the congress to pass regulation without a demonstrable need for it.... well, you're entitled to your opinions, but I'm tired of dancing in circles over it. Find some current examples that haven't already been addressed by the existing system and then you can tell me all about how proposed regulation would be a panacea for it. Til then.....

You have been given examples, you just can't move beyond your bias against government to realize, huh why are our courts having to decide on something like this in the first place? No, all you do is say is that in the end the good guy won and ignore the fact that he almost lost because in your mind if the good guy wins, it doesn't matter how close the bad guy came to winning its a justification that everything is 100% fine and now we don't need more evil government to help us against the kind corporations that look out for us so we will choose to give them our money.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I wasn't even going to reply to ACIN's example, because it was nonsensical. What you are proposing would be akin to agitating for the PATRIOT ACT, if our intelligence community had broken up the 9/11 plot without it.

No, it's more akin to agitating for better protection if the terrorists had already hijacked the planes and were 30 seconds away from hitting the towers but a fighter plane manages to shoot them down 10 seconds before they hit.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Unless Congress takes specific measures to limit the powers of ISPs soon, expect the telcos to move steadily toward a service model like the one the mobile carriers enjoy now.

Why? They've been able to forever, and net neutrality people have been harping about the supposed 'dangers' for years, but it hasn't happened. So why should we expect it to?

Anyway, here's a blog with a lot of information on it. You know, Lemur, more of the stuff I'm posting that you seem to be completely ignoring :
http://freestatefoundation.blogspot....t%20Neutrality

Some important points:

In his summary and conclusion, Professor Epstein explains that we ought to be able to distinguish between regulations that strengthen markets and those that undermine them, but that there is a long-standing pattern of government's failure to do so. The regulators' proclivities to overreach are often driven by a denigration of property rights and systems of voluntary exchange. So here is how he concludes his chapter:

"A similar pattern is at work in the modern debates over net neutrality. The defense of that position starts out as a plea to end discrimination. Yet there is little evidence that the new dose of regulation will produce any gains in the short run. In the long run, we can expect a repetition of the sorry performance of the FCC (or, for that matter, Congress) with respect to broadcast rights to work its way through the law of net neutrality. The sad truth is that the parties who seek to develop sophisticated and sensible schemes for state control quickly lose control over the administrative process to persons whose ambitions for state control are not bound by any fine-grained rationale. The dangers for this predictable drift usually suffice to err on the side of caution. Stated otherwise, the expected rate of depreciation of sound public norms that rely on administrative discretion is high. There are too many pressure points to keep the rascals at bay. So the recommendation here is to follow classical liberal principles that treat all state intervention as a mistake until it is shown to be a good. More practically, and much to the point of the current public policy debate: Keep private control over broadband pipes by abandoning the siren call for net neutrality."

And as to the idea that companies aren't expanding networks or just hording cash because they are as stupid as the people who invented the net neutrality problem:

Unlike other segments of the economy, even in difficult economic times, just in the last two years the broadband providers have invested over $200 billion of private capital in building out and enhancing their broadband networks, without seeking government guarantees of bailouts.

CR

[a completely inoffensive name]

Anyway, here's a blog with a lot of information on it. You know, Lemur, more of the stuff I'm posting that you seem to be completely ignoring :
http://freestatefoundation.blogspot....t%20Neutrality

I would like to pull a Tribesman and say:


A blog!?! One that specifically states it's a shill for free market ideology! And you want that to be taken seriously!

[Crazed Rabbit]

Have you even read the blog? Perhaps you should before your foot goes farther into your mouth.

CR

[a completely inoffensive name]

Have you even read the blog? Perhaps you should before your foot goes farther into your mouth.

CR

I have read the blog, and it is obvious the guy is an intelligent person, but it's a blog, period. If this guy has posted an argument in a published place with any sort of fact checking instead of him just going off on his blog, then I will take it seriously. Anyone can make an "intelligent" argument with lots of links to "facts" and try to label it as worthy as an opinion piece in Newsweek.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'd take most blogs of any political persuasion over a Newsweek opinion piece.

It seems like you're not even giving the arguments any thought. If you don't think he checks his facts, then find what's incorrect. If his arguments are false, then refute them.

But don't entirely dismiss them because you don't agree with them. The validity of an argument is not determined by whether or not it's written in Newsweek.

CR

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'd take most blogs of any political persuasion over a Newsweek opinion piece.

It seems like you're not even giving the arguments any thought. If you don't think he checks his facts, then find what's incorrect. If his arguments are false, then refute them.

But don't entirely dismiss them because you don't agree with them. The validity of an argument is not determined by whether or not it's written in Newsweek.

CR

No, but you have to admit that the ratio between intelligent:idiotic arguments on blogs is the exact opposite then in Newsweek.

Any way, at this point in the argument is where I see that no progress is going to be made here. You and Xiahou have been saying the same thing and so have we. Any "proof" we show is just going to be nit picked by each of us. You two can keep thinking that government is out to get you, and let companies walk all over you for the sake of keeping the free market alive and I'll keep thinking my own out of touch ideologies.

It's saturday night and it feels like an Arby's then lolcatz night.