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  1. #1
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Net Neutrality Paradigm Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    So do you have any actual examples?
    Google "traffic shaping" and you'll find plenty. At the moment, it's all about throttling Bittorrent, which sucks if you download such illegal things as Europa Barbarorum, Linux distros, Asus drivers, or WoW updates.

    Comcast has been known to mess with packets on their network. Last year, they stood in the middle of a firestorm thanks to traffic shaping. Comcast was caught red handed using TCP resets to block traffic based on protocol, the top issue was BitTorrent traffic.

    The issue got worse when, after denying it at first, Comcast came clean and mostly admitted to the traffic shaping, but essentially said they couldn’t tell people about it because they would circumvent the process. They defended the traffic shaping by comparing it to a traffic jam, where a car is slowed from entering the freeway for a moment, not blocked from entering it entirely. They also added that the press and blogosphere would keep them honest, as one of the reasons for the FCC to take no action.

    P.S.: "Traffic shaping" is legal in Canada. Do you want to be Canada? Why do you love maple syrup and hate freedom?

    -edit-

    A little more background on Comcast and their shapely traffic.
    Last edited by Lemur; 10-24-2009 at 03:35.

  2. #2
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Net Neutrality Paradigm Shift

    And what happened to Comcast, Lemur? Do they still block torrent traffic?

    Their attempt was pretty much total failure anyhow, as people quickly discovered how to circumvent their filtering. But, I think the topic of how ISPs- or even if they can- deal with bandwidth hogs is more interesting that the topic of net neutrality in general (your ISP is gonna block youtube!).

    Hopefully, everyone realizes that bandwidth is not limitless. Your average user doesn't use that much of it, but a small percentage of users can and do take up massive amounts of bandwidth. Should an ISP be able to close ports used by bandwidth intensive applications like torrents? Most users don't use torrents, and those that do can slow things down for other users and adversely affect their surfing, ect. An alternative would be flat download limiting- which in my experience draws just as many howls of protest as port blocking. What to do?
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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  3. #3
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Net Neutrality Paradigm Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    And what happened to Comcast, Lemur? Do they still block torrent traffic?
    In Canada, where it's the law of the land, they sure do. Why do you love hockey and lumberjacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    I think the topic of how ISPs- or even if they can- deal with bandwidth hogs is more interesting that the topic of net neutrality in general
    Actually, I'd pair this up with the enforced local monopolies/duopolies, a subject which I don't think I've seen you address.

  4. #4
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Net Neutrality Paradigm Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    In Canada, where it's the law of the land, they sure do.
    Who cares about Canada? I thought we were talking about a proposed regulation in the US..... In the US, Comcast's policy was overruled by the FCC.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
    Umm, part of the point of net neutrality is to prevent the interest group/corporation from being able to force ISPs to cut off the internet in the first place so....
    No, sorry. Net neutrality would do nothing to stop people from sending out DMCA take down notices nor would it stop ISPs that knuckle under and comply without contesting the issue. To put it another way, if a company is notified they're hosting a site that has illegal content, net neutrality won't stop them from taking it down. You're dealing with completely different issues.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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  5. #5
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Net Neutrality Paradigm Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Who cares about Canada? I thought we were talking about a proposed regulation in the US..... In the US, Comcast's policy was overruled by the FCC.
    *Facepalm*

    Yes, it was overruled ... by the FCC ... based on the idea: " 'Subscribers should be able to go where they want, when they want, and generally use the Internet in any legal means,' outlined FCC chairman Kevin Martin in a related statement."

    ... which sounds an awful lot like ... I dunno, what's a good term for the idea that people who pay for bandwidth ought to be able to use it as they see fit without traffic shaping or filtering? Somebody help me out here. There must be a phrase that describes this point of view. Something that rhymes with "bet duality." Hmm. I'll think of it at some point.

    So you're opposed to the FCC enacting a policy ... that you praise the FCC for acting upon ... oh, I give up.

  6. #6
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Net Neutrality Paradigm Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    oh, I give up.
    Maybe that'd be best.

    You're agitating for regulations to be implemented. The example you dredge up was overruled by the FCC in 2008. What are you whining about again?

    We need net neutrality now!
    Why?
    Look what Comcast did!
    The FCC already overruled that.
    Exactly, that's why we need net neutrality regulations!
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  7. #7

    Default Re: Net Neutrality Paradigm Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    You're agitating for regulations to be implemented. The example you dredge up was overruled by the FCC in 2008. What are you whining about again?

    We need net neutrality now!
    Why?
    Look what Comcast did!
    The FCC already overruled that.
    Exactly, that's why we need net neutrality regulations!

    We need to improve national security!
    Why?
    Look what those terrorists did!
    But we managed to catch them right before they detonated the nuke in NY.
    Exactly, which is why we need to improve our national security to make sure it doesn't get to this point.

    I swear, its like you don't care how messed up the legislation is as long as the judicial makes sure the right thing is done in the end. "Look how messed up the law is that allowed Comcast do even attempt that!" "But the judge made the right decision, so it's all good, why are you complaining?" Talk about


  8. #8
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Net Neutrality Paradigm Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Look what Comcast did!
    The FCC already overruled that.
    Based on what philosophy and what principles? Why are you in favor of the practice of net neutrality, but dead set against the policy? Like ACIN said, it's as though you like being defended from foreign enemies, but don't want anybody making the armed forces a fact of policy. 'Cause that would be, you know, big government. Which is bad.

    You also appear to be pivoting from point to point, moving on as quickly as possible as each position is disproved. "Show me an example of harm!" Examples given. "Those don't matter, 'cause net neutrality won in the end!" What about Canada? "That's Canada, which passed a law against net neutrality, so it can't posibly be relevant!" Say wha? "You don't get it!" Seriously, your position appears to be fixed, with the reasoning for the position scattered about like decorations.

    Also, note that you love the series of tubes videos, while blithely walking past what Ted Stevens was arguing. His reasons for opposing net neutrality were about as coherent as your own.

    Let's not forget that the playing field is not static, and that telcos will be working their little lobbyists to the bone in an attempt to recreate the Canadian system here. That should be blindingly obvious to anyone whose position is not an idée fixe.

    In recent years, however, major telcos have pressured lawmakers to take a different viewpoint. As the Internet has assumed an ever-greater role in business and our daily lives, ISPs claim they have the right to adopt an active role in shaping the traffic that flows over their networks. They claim such interference will benefit network security, improve customer experience, and stimulate the free market. But if we want to see what the Internet would look like if the telcos get their way, we need look no further than the current situation on mobile networks -- and it's not a pretty picture. [...]

    Mobile network providers have long maintained a higher level of control over their services than traditional ISPs do -- because they can. Only certain devices work on certain carriers' networks, and carriers routinely disable features on those devices if they don't like their implications. And it's all perfectly legal.

    By comparison, Congress has taken an active hand in the regulation of terrestrial networks since the breakup of Ma Bell in the 1970s, when lawmakers sought to curtail monopolistic practices in the telecom sector. But existing regulations were designed mainly for voice calls. Unless Congress takes specific measures to limit the powers of ISPs soon, expect the telcos to move steadily toward a service model like the one the mobile carriers enjoy now.

    ISPs have already demonstrated a willingness to limit network access for specific applications. Typically they claim they do it because the applications consume an inordinate amount of bandwidth, in violation of network usage policies. But last year, the FCC found that Comcast had engaged in widespread blocking of the BitTorrent protocol, even in cases where no network congestion was present. In the absence of specific guidance from Congress, such cases will only proliferate, and the FCC's authority to regulate them will continually be called into question.

    Yup, it's the Comcast decision again, the one in favor of net neutrality, which, in a leap of dizzying illogic, you claim proves that net neutrality is unnecessary.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Net Neutrality Paradigm Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    No, sorry. Net neutrality would do nothing to stop people from sending out DMCA take down notices nor would it stop ISPs that knuckle under and comply without contesting the issue. To put it another way, if a company is notified they're hosting a site that has illegal content, net neutrality won't stop them from taking it down. You're dealing with completely different issues.
    No, sorry. Net neutrality regulation would stop the ISP from shutting down someones internet based on a companies complaint without any judicial oversight or approval. It's not completely different issues, if the RIAA tells your electric company to shut down your electricity because you are using it for illegal copying you can bet they will get their ass sued as well as the electric company if they comply, yet it is ok to shut down that person's internet? If an ISP is notified from the actual government not a corporation looking for teenagers to punish then yes that would be allowed no matter what.

    Waving DMCA or whatever justification they fabricate in everyones face does not allow a company to do whatever the hell they want.


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