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Thread: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Where to begin? It's a right old mess isn't it? What happened? How did we get here? What can we, the voters do, if anything, about it?

    I've just read a resonable opinion on how we might get our country back.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Conventional politicians love referring to unconventional ones as "swivel-eyed". They mean anyone who breaks ranks or appears to take a stand on a point of principle. The adjective is particularly applied to any MP who takes a persistent interest in a single subject – Europe, say, or tax reform or the poverty trap. Such interest, after all, gets in the way of self-advancement.

    Douglas Carswell, the Conservative Member for Harwich, is a classic example of the genre. Although his eyes do not, in fact, swivel, he does look slightly odd. He is tall and thin and gangly, with a very powerful jaw. He is uncomfortable and serious, rather like the sort of crank who stalks the streets carrying plastic bags bursting with documents which prove that UFOs are beaming radiation into the water supply. His weird idea is that voters should be able to make MPs genuinely answerable to them. For this reason, many of his colleagues regard him as a lunatic.

    MPs' expenses: Now we can start again - with a clean House
    MPs' expenses: We've been paying too much for Labour's morality for too long

    But these are strange times. In the expenses scandal, conventional politicians are made to look fools or knaves. Jacqui Smith, the former Home Secretary, is a purely conventional politician, of the Blair Babe variety. This week, she made a half-apology to the House of Commons for having designated what was clearly her second home (a lodging with her sister in south London) as her first – in unparliamentary English, she cheated. She is finished, although the conventions established by the conventional politicians will ensure her an undeservedly long political afterlife.

    Mr Carswell, on the other hand, is just getting started. It was he, to much tut-tutting from his seniors, who put down the motion of no-confidence in Mr Speaker Martin this summer. He set something in train. Eventually, Mr Martin had to go.

    This week, on the same day, by piquant chance, that one Baron Martin of Springburn was being elevated to the Lords, Mr Carswell rose in the Commons to introduce his Ten-Minute Rule Bill. He began by asking MPs to remember when they were first elected, the moment "…when we heard the returning officer read out our names". "Most Hon. Members felt in their bones," he went on, "that entering the House was one of the greatest and most exalted moments in their lives, yet today we find ourselves scorned". The loss of public respect is so great that "In a reversal of 300 years of democratic development, the very fact of being elected to public office is sometimes… regarded as a disqualification".

    The Carswell solution is not to submit MPs to ever greater tortures at the hands of unelected people like Sir Thomas Legg, but to send them back to face the electors. He wants candidates to be chosen by open primaries of all constituents, rather than by party caucuses. MPs found guilty of serious wrongdoing would be subject to "recall" (in effect, a by-election) by their constituents if a decent percentage of them petitioned for it. Under our current system, Mr Carswell points out, roughly 70 per cent of seats are safe for the party holding them, so the Member, once elected, can relax. Under the Carswell rules, there will be no such a thing as a safe seat.

    If this is "swivel-eyed", it is preferable to the conventional blindness. Mr Carswell sees clearly a point which is missed both by most of those who excoriate our MPs and most of those struggling to defend them. Attempts to regulate MPs by an external authority will prove an utter disaster, because they set that authority above the people we ourselves choose to make our laws. It therefore replaces parliamentary democracy by the rule of minister, judge or bureaucrat.

    Every recent scheme – state funding for political parties, control of "second jobs" for MPs, Gordon Brown's invention of an Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, even the establishment of a Supreme Court separate from the House of Lords – is guilty of the same error. We entrench more and more "scrutiny", but what we are creating is a quango state.

    On the other hand, no voter, at present, will listen to another word from MPs about their right to supply their own pay and rations, because they have collectively, blatantly abused that right. The only items that we, the public, are now prepared to permit under the Additional Costs Allowance are sackcloth and ashes. So something like what Mr Carswell wants is the only way forward.

    I keep asking myself how all this has come about. How is it that a Parliamentary system which really was the envy of the world even only a generation ago is now the butt of its jokes? I think I have a possible explanation.

    For a hundred years, the great issue which Parliament debated most often was the franchise. Who should be allowed to elect MPs? From the Great Reform Bill of 1832 until the final admission of all women as voters in 1928, this argument raged. It made MPs super-conscious of the people who put them into Parliament, since they kept on debating who those people should be. And it made the public feel that the right to vote really mattered.

    With these battles won, people felt satisfied, for the time being. But after the Second World War, politicians began to take advantage. With their legitimacy uncontested, they made things more comfortable for themselves. MPs forgot that their House was esteemed because it genuinely made the laws for the people it represented, and so they transferred much of that right to Europe.

    Having handed over their birthright, MPs then focused on their mess of pottage. Individual offices, more paid advisers, bigger pensions, shorter hours, second homes, free ginger-crinkle biscuits! It is not a coincidence that Tony Blair, the first prime minister in our history ever to show consistent contempt for the House of Commons, was also the first to make the hand-outs really gargantuan.

    In the party conference season which has just finished, little bits of this subject came up. David Cameron, in particular, was specific about one or two tough things which he wanted to apply in the next Parliament, such as an end to the MPs' pension scandal. But the mood in all the leaderships was that they wanted to "move on". They are avoiding plans for real reform. They should be reverting to Prime Minister's Questions twice a week, relinquishing government control of parliamentary business, providing for referendums. But of course they do not want to strengthen Parliament against the executive which they themselves hope to lead.

    All the parties are fighting the next election on the old assumption that whoever wins will have the necessary mandate to govern from the British people. It is true that a fresh Parliament will automatically be less shameful than this one. But will that be enough? Isn't public disillusionment more radical? Conventional politics has been failing for 40 years: time for something more swivel-eyed.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...democracy.html

    I'm of the opinion that we do need open primaries and a method of recall to make the bastards politicians accountable. After all, if they've got nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear. [TM Tony Blair]
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Just pull the plug and sink it

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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    The only way that you will end government corruption is getting rid of government...it just isn’t going to happen.

    Of all the bad choices maybe the Queen and common law are your best bet in the short run...in the long run?


    Maybe government by lottery is a way to accidentally get an honest representative...


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    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    on a slightly unrelated note, Alex Salmond appears confused about how devolution is meant to work.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8311801.stm

    Anyway right back on topic, I like this last line, it sums up my view nicely.

    "Conventional politics has been failing for 40 years: time for something more swivel-eyed. "


    "A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    I just read an interesting article in the Guardian about an MP asking questions about Trafigura - an oil trading corporation suspected of massive fraud, pollution, and murder.

    No wait. I didn't read it. For the first time in centuries, the ancient British liberty of the press being allowed to report on the dealings of parliament has been revoked.


    So I'm sorry. I can not comment on the state of parliamentary democracy in the UK - because their dealings are now secret and may not be reoprted upon.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 10-17-2009 at 13:34.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    That was quickly overturned - although not thanks to the laws that have existed for centuries, but thanks to Twitter...

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    That was quickly overturned - although not thanks to the laws that have existed for centuries, but thanks to Twitter...

    Indeed. But the UK is not supposed to be Iran, where Twitter is the last refuge of democracy.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    '
    lol http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/6695...n_wilders.html

    Thank you very much for your lack of self control

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Indeed. But the UK is not supposed to be Iran, where Twitter is the last refuge of democracy.
    Democracy in the UK is a thin veneer that ensures that the masses feel that they have a say. This has been debased into a popularity contest every 5 years or so between 2 or 3 people based on a list of pledges that can be binned without compunction.

    The police might not routinely come to people's houses and drag off dissenters, but little if any changes would be need to happen to the laws for this to occur. The police already have recently killed members of the general public which only came to light due to video phones - the only time the police realised that blanket denial was not going to help.

    Of course, now the law has changed so photographing the police is itself illegal...

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    The best solution, naturally, would be to erase it and proclaim a Dictatorship held by prominent members of the BNP.

    lol

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Terribly Harmful Name View Post
    The best solution, naturally, would be to erase it and proclaim a Dictatorship held by prominent, all silly the BNP.

    lol
    Well you could as well wonder why you have such a thing as the BNP. We don't have a party like that. Must be something on the other side,it works like that.

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Ugh, not the expenses scandal again
    It's probably the most disproportionate reaction to such a small amount of money stolen in the history of mankind. Considering the total amount of money abused probably hovers in the one/two million pounds category, the total cost of all the expenses could probably be recovered if the people who owned the newspaper which broke the story (The Daily Torygraph), the Barclay Brothers, had enough decency to pay income tax like the rest of the population of the UK, instead of hiding away on Sark.

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    So you see no problem with corrupt, self-serving bastards politicians passing laws that affect you? (Not them BTW, as they are above such trivia)

    Since when did the Barclay twins pass any laws? When they did stick their oar in, it came back to bite them on the bum. Big time.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    If you are upset about the expenses scandel and other things, why not just vote for the Liberal democrats, or Greens, or UKIP as alternative parties? That would really shut the government up and get things working. However, the British people in this thread would probably be either voting Labour or Conservative, yet again.

    Also, we should really install Alternative Voting system, like they have in Ireland (or is it North Ireland?)
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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Also, we should really install Alternative Voting system, like they have in Ireland (or is it North Ireland?)
    I thought Australia was the only country that uses an Alternative Voting system (although they call it preferential vote or something)? Northern Ireland uses the Single Transferable Vote.

    Alternative Vote is a really bad system though. The idea is that the regional party lists allow for a propertional element, but because the candidates elected through this are only given a small number of the total seats (usually 10-20%), this means the smaller parties never take enough of the vote to actually win one of these seats.

    So in the end, you have a large number seats granted on a regional FPTP basis, in which the small parties would struggle to win any single seat. Then you introduce a PR bit in which they would normally win some representation; however so few seats are given away in this manner that they don't get enough share of the votes to take one.

    It's an awful and non-sensical way of doing things, just make it full PR.
    Last edited by Rhyfelwyr; 10-17-2009 at 20:26.
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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    So you see no problem with corrupt, self-serving bastards politicians passing laws that affect you? (Not them BTW, as they are above such trivia)
    No. I'm saying it's totally out of proportion, and potentially damaging in the long term to our democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Since when did the Barclay twins pass any laws?
    Again, I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's incredibly hypocritical and downright insulting for those two fatcats to endlessly milk this story for all it's worth, whilst basically stealing from the taxpayer.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    When they did stick their oar in, it came back to bite them on the bum. Big time.
    I think the entire world breathed a sigh of relief when they failed

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    If you are upset about the expenses scandel and other things, why not just vote for the Liberal democrats, or Greens, or UKIP as alternative parties? That would really shut the government up and get things working. However, the British people in this thread would probably be either voting Labour or Conservative, yet again.
    'Fraid so. Will probably assist one candidate with organising the campaign.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    It's an awful and non-sensical way of doing things, just make it full PR.
    PR is a very bad system.

    You have to remember that in Britain, general elections you vote for the MP for your area. Hypothetically speaking, you are meant to vote for the best person for the job, not what party they belong too.

    Having a system like Single Transferable Vote will actually increase the number of minority parties getting seats because many people would other vote labour to stop the conservatives and vice-versus, so having STV, they can vote for a minority party then for the 2nd choice, have labour/conservative if they desired.
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    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Simple solution. Emigrate.
    #Hillary4prism

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    awesome article, charles moore is usually a good read.

    i have a LOT of sympathy for the view of hannan and carswell that the twin facts of poor MP conduct and reduced MP responsibility are directly linked.

    As MP's have given away their authority to act and power to govern to quangoes and the EU they traduced their own self worth as a class.

    the MP's expenses rules introduced by labour were nothing more than a symptom of a far greater malignancy; governance had become so quango'ised and EU-harmonised that MP's have little responsibility, and thus little incentive to act responsibly, so the expense rules became nothing more than an opt-out for self responsibility in the place of good judgement.

    "i obeyed the rules" would not have been seen by politicians as an acceptable excuse in previous eras, and they failed to appreciate that voters would not accept it as an acceptable excuse today.

    the solution:
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    PR is a very bad system.

    You have to remember that in Britain, general elections you vote for the MP for your area. Hypothetically speaking, you are meant to vote for the best person for the job, not what party they belong too.

    Having a system like Single Transferable Vote will actually increase the number of minority parties getting seats because many people would other vote labour to stop the conservatives and vice-versus, so having STV, they can vote for a minority party then for the 2nd choice, have labour/conservative if they desired.
    Quite, the problem is the boundaries of seats traditionally held by different parties giving Labour an edge. This could easily be solved by passing a Law so that all seats had to be a certain size, and not just what the boundaries commision wrote on the back of an envelope.

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Well, PR and FPTP both have their strengths/weaknesses. But the way AV is designed ends up defeating what it is supposed to achieve.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Amongst all the politician bashing, I think there's room for examining what the role of the electorate - yes, us - might be in all this. After all, in a representative democracy, they represent our demands all too well.

    This article by the comedian David Mitchell sums it up rather well.

    I completely agree that this sort of cynicism is immoral. What I don't like is people claiming it's all the work of a few malevolent patricians – a self-serving ruling class getting off on their own acquisitive misanthropy – rather than a political community responding obediently to our loudly expressed democratic will.

    Oil, trade, employment and money are important to us – and, by us, I mean we the people, not just they the politicians or business interests. What are the issues over which we citizens of a great liberal democracy have become really, seriously, exercised in the last decade? The environment? Zimbabwe? North Korea? No, the price of petrol, the recession, the money in our pockets, our jobs. That's what we care about and the politicians know it. When there's a controversial war, some nice, middle-class people go on an organised weekend stroll. When petrol is too expensive, lorry drivers blockade the major roads and the country grinds to a halt. Our leaders would have to be fools to take the former more seriously than the latter.

    But they're so craven, so much the creatures of our favour, that they'll let us hide from our own self-interest. They've become the sin-eaters of the global village, the despised receptacle of wrongs with which we are all complicit. They'll screen us from the deals they do on our behalf, pretend to be overturning despots, looking for illegal nuclear arsenals or spreading democracy and allow us, to paraphrase the words of Colonel Jessep in A Few Good Men, to sleep under the blanket of the prosperity that they provide and then question the manner in which they provide it.

    Not them. Us. And isn't it about time we did something about us?
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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    I thought Australia was the only country that uses an Alternative Voting system (although they call it preferential vote or something)?
    There are others who use Preferential Voting. I believe that New Zealand has a very strange system that mixes Pref Voting with PR and I have heard really good things about it from those who support electoral reform in Australia. Preferential Voting, whilst far from being perfect, does help to increase the minor party vote, though rarely to the point where they will win any seats. However, that's pretty much because the number of voters in every one of our electorates is second highest in the world (Only behind America).
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    Amongst all the politician bashing, I think there's room for examining what the role of the electorate - yes, us - might be in all this. After all, in a representative democracy, they represent our demands all too well.

    This article by the comedian David Mitchell sums it up rather well.
    Gah! Is it not telling that it should be a comedian to speak the truth!?

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    Well, PR and FPTP both have their strengths/weaknesses. But the way AV is designed ends up defeating what it is supposed to achieve.
    PR is fundamentally flawed because it is done on a party basis, not an individual basis. Also, anyone could just get the seat.

    Doing it by area means the MP for your area, the one you choose, gets to carry your weight into government.

    Also, you have to remember that in a way, MP's also play a part in administrating in your area. Thus, they are elected administrators for that area by the people in that area.

    There are many many reasons that this is superior to PR, both in practise and in principle.
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  27. #27
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Initiative, Referendum, and Recall. Plus term-limits.

    We need 'em too.

    I think many politicians start out with good intentions. Something about human behavior makes us more and more susceptible to corruption over time. We keep proving that to ourselves over and over. So, if we accept that we must have a government of some kind (and I do), then build in automatic safeguards, to keep honest people honest, and governments accountable.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  28. #28
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    Initiative, Referendum, and Recall. Plus term-limits.

    We need 'em too.

    I think many politicians start out with good intentions. Something about human behavior makes us more and more susceptible to corruption over time. We keep proving that to ourselves over and over. So, if we accept that we must have a government of some kind (and I do), then build in automatic safeguards, to keep honest people honest, and governments accountable.
    Link doesn't work, also NO term limits, ever.

    An electorate has to be responsible, if they keep voting in the same idiot they should suffer.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  29. #29
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Link doesn't work, also NO term limits, ever.

    An electorate has to be responsible, if they keep voting in the same idiot they should suffer.
    Sorry for the link (still works for me); let's try wikipedia then.

    I have a lot of sympathy for an electorate getting the idiot they deserve, but only philosophically. On a practical level, a duped citizenry should have a way of reducing the damage done by a rep who doesn't rep, once elected.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  30. #30
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The state of parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    Sorry for the link (still works for me); let's try wikipedia then.

    I have a lot of sympathy for an electorate getting the idiot they deserve, but only philosophically. On a practical level, a duped citizenry should have a way of reducing the damage done by a rep who doesn't rep, once elected.
    This is not a foundational principle of Parliamentary Democracy. We need to be able to elect the same idiot, not least to prevent us being forced to elect a worse idiot.

    That is, after all, how you guys got Bush.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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