Adding Frighten_mounted to Sarissa units

**Cute Wolf** · 10-23-2009, 06:27

Well, because that discussion in "Elephants going rampage" but then, the discussion shifts into about how effective spear can deter cavalry units, I gonna some experience on adding "frighten_mounted" on phalangitai units... as expected, some elite cavalry (kataphraktoi & hetairoi) can't push themself against the pikes anymore (they actually do it for some time and then routs)... but I got a little problems that is very funny...

When I add frighten_mounted ability to my humble Phalangitai Deuteroi, and build a normal battleline with them, any lesser light cavalry (such as thraikioi hippeis, and assortment of barbarian light cavalry, as well as hippakontistai), now are fled rather instantly each time I order them to charge the phalanx line.... FROM BEHIND....

Is there any sort how to made this unit is frightening only from the front?

type greek infantry taxeis phalangitai
dictionary hellenistic_infantry_taxeis_phalangitai ; Phalangitai Deuteroi
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Light_1
soldier hellenistic_infantry_pantodapoi_machimoi_taxeisphalangitai, 60, 0, 1.4
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, frighten_mounted
formation 1.1, 1, 2.2, 2, 6, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 12, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.17
stat_pri_attr long_pike, light_spear
stat_sec 7, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 8, 4, 5, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
stat_mental 9, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1479, 370, 40, 50, 1479
ownership macedon, thrace

**Macilrille** · 10-23-2009, 06:33

I would say no, fright is something instinctive; a shying away from fire, elephants or camels if you are a horse. And from berserkers if you are a human, the anormal and dangerous, by sheer instingt like you shy away from a snake or tarantula or get goosebumps or whatever, something that can only be overcome by bravery or training.

Spears deterring cavalry is not from fright- they are no more frightening than any other wall of men to a horse. It is the rider thinking "Hmmm... if I charge unto long and pointy things we will die, I better circle round them or charge somewhere else", it is not from fright, just sheer tactical sense.

Let us not mix the two. Phalanxes are over-effective already, no need to add something instinctive that is no worse than any other massive and tight formation of infantry.

**ziegenpeter** · 10-23-2009, 06:54

Originally Posted by Macilrille

Spears deterring cavalry is not from fright- they are no more frightening than any other wall of men to a horse. It is the rider thinking "Hmmm... if I charge unto long and pointy things we will die, I better circle round them or charge somewhere else", it is not from fright, just sheer tactical sense.

No I think its exactly that wall of pointy things that is much more frightening than other walls (to the HORSE!!)

**Cute Wolf** · 10-23-2009, 07:41

Originally Posted by ziegenpeter

No I think its exactly that wall of pointy things that is much more frightening than other walls (to the HORSE!!)

As I see more clearly, sarissas have double pointy thingies, the one at the back is still frightening to horse... don't they?

:hammer:

**A Very Super Market** · 10-23-2009, 07:59

We are still animals. Let us compare.

Go to your kitchen. See those knives? Those can kill you easily. But they aren't doing anything, and are just sitting there. You're fine. If someone was throwing them at you, you would be scared.

Expand.

To a horse, a phalanx is just some odd object. They don't really care. A war horse does not get spooked by the mere sight of danger, which the horses might not even recognize the phalanx as at a distance. It's only when they get ordered to charge into a phalanx do the alerts pop off and they start freaking out.

**alexanderthegreater** · 10-23-2009, 10:27

This discussion intrigues me. Some claims have been made that horses wont charge into a row of spears, but what is the truth of this?
It should be easily testeble, if you have a horse lol.
I do know that horses wont run into mobs of people. But you can train them to do it. The riot police, for example.
So can you train horses to charge into men and/or pike formations? and if so, was ancient cavalry trained to do this?
Isnt chaeronae an example of well trained cavalry succesfully charging a (hoplite) phalanx?

**Celtic_Punk** · 11-02-2009, 15:19

Originally Posted by Macilrille

I would say no, fright is something instinctive; a shying away from fire, elephants or camels if you are a horse. And from berserkers if you are a human, the anormal and dangerous, by sheer instingt like you shy away from a snake or tarantula or get goosebumps or whatever, something that can only be overcome by bravery or training.

Spears deterring cavalry is not from fright- they are no more frightening than any other wall of men to a horse. It is the rider thinking "Hmmm... if I charge unto long and pointy things we will die, I better circle round them or charge somewhere else", it is not from fright, just sheer tactical sense.

Let us not mix the two. Phalanxes are over-effective already, no need to add something instinctive that is no worse than any other massive and tight formation of infantry.

its well known that horses don't like to charge into walls of pointy objects.

**Macilrille** · 11-02-2009, 17:16

Is it?

Yes, but no more so than into any other wall of men. I challenge you to come forth with a source that counters my argument from working 5 years with horses; and I tell you that horses fear men holding spears no more than other men- just like game animals do not fear armed men more than others.

Horses are not users of tools, so they do not recognise such. I already listed it all.

**A Very Super Market** · 11-03-2009, 07:03

Perhaps that is not the point he is trying to make. Surely, a horse does recognize that a man with a sarissa seems to be bigger than one with a sword?

**Macilrille** · 11-03-2009, 10:07

No it does not. It sees a man.
And while horses does not like to charge into massive formations of men, spears/pike/sarrisae does not frighten the horse more than the man would.

A wolf would frighten it, or a lion, something it instinctively recognises as a threat. That frightens it, fright is instinctive behavior in Humans and Horses.

Wolves, lions etc has preyed on horses for millenia, sarrisae has not and is thus not ingrained in its instinctive behavior as threatening and consequently not eliciting the instinctive reaction; fright. If it was it would be hard for the rider to use a spear himself as well.