Adding Frighten_mounted to Sarissa units

[alexanderthegreater]

This discussion intrigues me. Some claims have been made that horses wont charge into a row of spears, but what is the truth of this?
It should be easily testeble, if you have a horse lol.
I do know that horses wont run into mobs of people. But you can train them to do it. The riot police, for example.
So can you train horses to charge into men and/or pike formations? and if so, was ancient cavalry trained to do this?
Isnt chaeronae an example of well trained cavalry succesfully charging a (hoplite) phalanx?

[Cute Wolf]

Horse is not a cheap animal.... and I don't have any...

But if we want to test this, I have an Idea... (no, this test won't kill your horse in question)
1. Collect some old plastic toy swords from your neighbourhood about two dozen or three. Mount them on some long 5 m bamboo rods, or stick.
2. Ride your horse into a large open plain (or a really big backyard)
3. Give each "toy sarissa" to your friends, and try to form a phalanx (give them EB screenshots).
4. Now ride your horse slowly to these bristling wall of "toy sarrisa"
5. See if your horse want to going deeper into the spearwall or not... I'll wait your test result...

[ziegenpeter]

Well I think that horses can be trained to ride into a bulk of people, but not into a wall of pikes. Or at least that how I remember it from the books I read. I guess the pointier the wall is, the more reluctant are the horses...

[Cute Wolf]

@Ziegenpeter
I propose this first...

Horse is not a cheap animal.... and I don't have any...

But if we want to test this, I have an Idea... (no, this test won't kill your horse in question)
1. Collect some old plastic toy swords from your neighbourhood about two dozen or three. Mount them on some long 5 m bamboo rods, or stick.
2. Ride your horse into a large open plain (or a really big backyard)
3. Give each "toy sarissa" to your friends, and try to form a phalanx (give them EB screenshots).
4. Now ride your horse slowly to these bristling wall of "toy sarrisa"
5. See if your horse want to going deeper into the spearwall or not... I'll wait your test result...

But, nobody want to use my suggestion and do that experiment...

[ziegenpeter]

Well yeah, I will ask some of my neighbours, if I could borrow a few of their well trained warhorses they still got somewhere in the attic, then ask my buddies to dig out their plastic sarissas from the cellar and off we go...
Are you serious?

[Dutchhoplite]

Isnt chaeronae an example of well trained cavalry succesfully charging a (hoplite) phalanx?

I rather doubt that Alexander broke the Theban Sacred band with his cavalry.

[ziegenpeter]

I rather doubt that Alexander broke the Theban Sacred band with his cavalry.

...from the front.
Plus, had they Sarissas? Don't think so.

[GMT]

Only an insane general would have charged a phalanx from the front, I doubt the classic generals were as stupid as the RTW AI.

A charge in the back of an already engaged phalanx unit should cause massive casualties but this is also flawed since RTW phalanx formation allows the unit to instantly turn their sarissas around which would not be possible IRL.

[Macilrille]

Horses are not intelligent beings as such. they do not see a bunch of spears and get afraid, like we do. To a horse, a human coming at it or standing still with or without a spear is the same. It is a human with some implement, unless one of those stupid and untrained animals that small girls spoil it will not care. Same with people, whether or not they hold spears is irrelevent to the horse, it is not intelligent enough to recognise the spears as a danger, it just sees a wall of people. However, it will not voluntarily run into such, it can be trained however.

Remember horses are prey and their reflex is to flee predators; 1 they do not see humans as such, 2 they do not attack anything- especially not a mass of people.

Thios is why trained warhorses that will not shy away from a mass of people or will even kick and bite (and perform dressage on people lying on the ground, dressage is derived from the equistrian art of fighting on horseback as still trained in Vienna) were so expensive (an expensive way of committing suicide against trained and disciplined infantry).

Hope that clarifies things a bit, apart from my other qualifications and knowledge I worked as a handyman etc at a riding centre while studying (oh was that fun, me and 27 girls from 18- 38).

[kurt190]

Warhorses generally go where they are told to. That is the point of the extensive training that they are given.
On a less realistic note I used to do English Civil War battle re-enactments - I was a pikeman carrying a 17 foot long pike complete with steel tip. On numerous occaisions we were "charged" by cavalry and several times things got rather too enthusiastic and the horses penetrated into our formation (mainly because we did not want to injure them....). The horses did not seem too concerned that they were presented with a formation of bristling pike and these horses, while trained were not warhorses by any stretch of the imagination.

kurt

[seienchin]

Well on one hand medievial knights horses werent afraid of riding into spears right on, but on the other hand the horses in the Eb timeframe were smaller and cavallery wasnt used to head on atacks at the enemy.

[Cute Wolf]

Well on one hand medievial knights horses werent afraid of riding into spears right on, but on the other hand the horses in the Eb timeframe were smaller and cavallery wasnt used to head on atacks at the enemy.

You certainly forgot about the Kataphraktoi... they carry more armour than the knight... by weight...

[WarpGhost]

Horses can become accustomed to the smell of camels, so I dont think training them to run onto spears would be a problem, even if it were needed, especially if you also trained them to trust their armour.

OTOH, most people wouldnt be foolish enough to charge onto spears without a very good reason, and the constraints of the RTW system are quite severe, so its a debate with limited practicality to our purpose, although quite interesting.

[Macilrille]

Well, the OP wants to add scare cavalry to Phalanxes, which I in no way see as realistic. A horse it as afraid of any wall of men even with no weapons. And if trained will charge that unit spears or not, they do not see and understand the danger of spears- they are stupid- if the unit had lions or wolves, the horse will be even more reluctant, for those things it recognises as dangers- not spears.

[Duguntz]

This discussion intrigues me. Some claims have been made that horses wont charge into a row of spears, but what is the truth of this?
It should be easily testeble, if you have a horse lol.
I do know that horses wont run into mobs of people. But you can train them to do it. The riot police, for example.
So can you train horses to charge into men and/or pike formations? and if so, was ancient cavalry trained to do this?
Isnt chaeronae an example of well trained cavalry succesfully charging a (hoplite) phalanx?

i owe horses... and NO, I wont ''test'' the truth of this! But I can tell you that naturally, that is, without proper training, a horse will never trample a man purpusfully. but of coooorse, they can easily be trained for any kind of use... train them to charge in a wall of spear, and they'll do it, even if that's mean their death... it's a matter of trust. the horse trust his cavalier, so he'll listen him ''nearly'' no matter what...

i'm no proffessional of history, that's just an hobby, but I can talk a whole lot about horses!

[Cute Wolf]

the horse trust his cavalier, so he'll listen him ''nearly'' no matter what...

i'm no proffessional of history, that's just an hobby, but I can talk a whole lot about horses!

That's all we need duguntz... as I know you have spent a lot of your time caring horses..... so, we didn't need to add frighten_mounted to sarrissa units... that's all, thanks.....

(and going on my suggestion using plastic sarrisa as a training method? they are non lethal to horse...)

[Duguntz]

With pleasure pal! You know the funny thing with your plastic sarrisas? i was thinkin' exactly the same while writting my reply...

[Macilrille]

The horse does not care about you holding a spear or not. It cannot see and distinguish- just like any game animal will be frightened by any man, not just a man with a rifle/shotgun. Thing is, as long as animals do not use tools they will not recognise such (a weapon is but a tool- for killing). You can teach a horse to recognise the whip, its food bucket etc, but you would be really dumb to train your horse to recognise and fear spears. As I have said many times in this thread (and now finally with somebody else who knows horses); 1. horses are dumb, 2. horses will not charge a solid obstacle or massive formation voluntarily, 3. horses can be trained to do the latter, but 4. because they are dumb it makes no difference to them whether or not the unit is holding a spear as they do not percieve that as a threat.

Concluding, adding fear to sarrisae units is irrelevant and would make them even more overpowered.

BTW; I love horses, but they are as a general rule not too smart.