Adding Frighten_mounted to Sarissa units

**Antonivs Silvicola** · 10-23-2009, 14:14

Well, you could change the mount effect to horse +2 or something instead of adding frighten mount to the attributes. Granted this will not scare the horses but it will dispatch them quicker and cause a casualty induced rout quicker which would be similar to the frighten attribute. And it should stop the routing previous to engagement from the rear of the phalanx(insert 5th grade joke here

). Personally, I think the phalanx units are slightly overpowered as it is but its your game. Adjust it how you will enjoy it most. My 2 cents.

**Cute Wolf** · 10-23-2009, 14:25

Originally Posted by Antonivs Silvicola

Well, you could change the mount effect to horse +2 or something instead of adding frighten mount to the attributes. Granted this will not scare the horses but it will dispatch them quicker and cause a casualty induced rout quicker which would be similar to the frighten attribute. And it should stop the routing previous to engagement from the rear of the phalanx(insert 5th grade joke here

). Personally, I think the phalanx units are slightly overpowered as it is but its your game. Adjust it how you will enjoy it most. My 2 cents.

I actually toned down the phalangitai wielders by -4, so they are more prone to be violated by katanks...

But adding frighten_mounted seems also work from behind.... that's the point...

EDIT : The example I show on the first was taken from multiplayer EDU, which I forgot to cut their first attack off.... as I Only apply this change to singleplayer EDU in my campaign...

**WarpGhost** · 10-23-2009, 14:43

Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

But adding frighten_mounted seems also work from behind.... that's the point...

Hence the severe limitations of the system. But I think to make horses frightened of a pointy stick, even just from the front, is to underestimate the skill of ancient horseman. All warhorses have to be desensitized to the rigours of combat (we still do it today, albeit mainly for movies

), and the average horseman would be a far better rider and at controlling his horse, and have a much better relationship, than most contemperary riders. I think the ascertation that horses are afraid of sharp sticks is more a case of dry academic speculation presented as reality-grounded fact. Even written cases of 'fear' arent necassarily above suspicion, due to partisan sources or simply misunderstanding why cavalry troops behaved as they did to spearmen.

But thats largely dry academic speculation on my part too

**Kevin** · 10-23-2009, 19:51

Elite units such as Spartans, Gaesatae, Royal Guards, and Triarii shouldn't be afraid of phalanxes. I would imagine that recruits would be more afraid of them than veterans.

For example, when facing Gaesatae...
Polybius is quoted to have said, "The appearance of these naked warriors was a terrifying spectacle, for they were all men of splendid physique and in the prime of life."

However,

Dionysius of Halicarnassus recorded, "Our enemies fight naked. What injury could their long hair, their fierce looks, their clashing arms do us? These are mere symbols of barbarian boastfulness."

**Uticensis** · 10-23-2009, 21:23

I have read that horses indeed will not charge into a tightly packed, solid battle line (like a phalanx or shield wall). And that is why javelins and arrows are so useful for the riders- if you can break up the infantry formation a little, than the horse, no longer presented with a solid wall, will indeed charge. Whether or not this is true, I don't know, I've never even been on a horse. But the tactics employed in most battles involving cavalry seem to bear it out.

Now, should horses be "afraid" of phalanxes? I don't think so, whether or not the above is true. Becuase even if it is true it still does not mean the horse is afraid: a horse is not afriad of a wall, but I imagine it would take a lot to get even a very well-trained horse to charge into a wall because it is simply a barrier. I think the same goes for a wall of men. I think a more realistic representation (which I realize is impossible within the constraints of the RTW engine) is if a cavlary unit in the game were ordered to charge the front of a phalanx, it would simply not recognize the order.

**ziegenpeter** · 10-26-2009, 14:56

Ok, we need sources and maybe somehow modern experiments about whether horses charge into a tight formation or not, because some of us say they do, some say they don't.
I'm pretty shure, that I heard from different historians that they don't and will aks them for sources asap.

**Macilrille** · 10-26-2009, 15:19

Originally Posted by ziegenpeter

Ok, we need sources and maybe somehow modern experiments about whether horses charge into a tight formation or not, because some of us say they do, some say they don't.
I'm pretty shure, that I heard from different historians that they don't and will aks them for sources asap.

The horses I worked with at the riding centre would not.

However, they can be trained to do so. Riot Police as well as some re-enactors' horses do so. At Hastings a few of the best riders with the most well-trained horses will ride up to the enemy formation and slowly use the body mass of the horse to push through. I believe that is what Riot Police do as well. That is not charging though...

However, that is not the point of the OP. His point was whether sarissae units should scare horses and I maintain a resounding no!! for the reasons I have stated above, but that no one seems to have read.

Instead the discussion has deviated into whether horses can be trained to charge solid masses of men. They can, historical evidence tells is so. But they will by nature not do so, they have to be trained intensely.