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Thread: Logical Fallacies: a Study

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    Zoodling Millipede Member Ariovistus Maximus's Avatar
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    Default Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Hi all!

    I have just recently completed a study I've been working on, listing and analyzing a number of commonly-used fallacies in Internet debate. I did it for the TWC, which has (IMO) more quality-control trouble due to size than the .Org has, but still I think and hope that it will be helpful to debaters here.

    Well, I’ve been debating online for a little while, and I’ve seen an awful lot of fallacious arguments.

    So here I have assembled a list of logical fallacies with brief explanations. I hope you guys will find it useful, and that you will keep these things in mind as you debate.

    And I don’t mean to preach, because I’ve employed probably every one of these fallacious arguments myself at some point. In fact, researching this makes me cringe in memory of some stupid things I’ve said. (Isn’t learning great? You get to find out what an idiot you used to be!)

    I am, of course, most definitely open to critiques, criticisms, and suggestions, and really this should be a discussion thread too.

    Thanks to Google and Wikipedia, which I used to search various issues and gain a greater understanding of them.

    Here it is.

    NOTE: I have put the meat of the study in spoilers to save space. I would urge you to read them if you want to get anything out of this study. Not to toot my own horn, but I think it will be of much help to the debaters on this forum, in terms of helping you avoid fallacies, and also to help you call out others when they engage in fallacious arguments.

    Both will enhance the quality of the forum, as well as give more meaning to your debate and make it more relevant and productive. Who knows? You might even learn something.

    And lastly, the motto for this study, which you will find amusingly appropriate.

    "Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur."

    Anything spoken in Latin sounds profound.



    1. Argumentum ad hominem

    Latin: “argument against the individual”



    Argumentum ad hominem is a debate tactic meant to devalue your opponent’s intelligence.

    Person A makes statement

    There is something objectionable about Person A

    A’s statement must be false

    Saying, “You’re stupid; go get an education,” is MUCH easier than methodically refuting a person’s arguments in a logical manner. And, usually, people use the ad hominem to make up for the fact that they have nothing of value to say.

    Also, ad hominems can take the form of exaggerations.

    People often call each other paranoid in debate. And sometimes people are (we will discuss slippery slope fallacy) paranoid, but remember the key problem of ad hominem:

    Your opponent is not paranoid, or simplistic, or whatever you think you can call him, just because you say so. You should have some VERY good reasons before you suggest something like that. Generally, you should never do it.

    Let me put it this way: you never CALL someone paranoid. You show why they are being paranoid and why their opinions are excessive or simplistic, etc.

    But in a case like that, your opponent is never acting a certain way just because you say so or you’d like to think so. So don’t bother to say it bluntly; show why they are taking too extreme of a view on things, show them what you think is a more realistic view, and they should come to their conclusions by themselves.

    Also, your methodology is very important in debate, because it’s easy to come across as hostile, especially if the other person is frustrated. It’s easy to infer anger into something you’re reading when you yourself are angry. And if you are angry, give yourself some cool-off time before you respond. You will come across better, and chances are that you’ll make your case more effectively too.

    So do your best to have a positive tone. Don’t be a stone wall; don’t be a stick in the mud. Small concessions and little compliments can go a long way, although I’m not saying that you should make stuff up or flatter your opponent, as that is just a method of undermining someone.

    Anyways, enough psychology. On to #2.



    2. Argumentum ad verecundiam

    Latin: “argument from authority”


    Ad verecundiam is the inverse of the ad hominem.

    Person A makes statement
    Person A has a good and scholarly reputation
    A’s statement must be valid

    This is also a fairly common tactic. People always sound like they have an ironclad case when they tell you that “Professor So-and-so” agrees with their opinion. Well, I don’t need to tell you that there are an awful lot of experts in the world, and you can find an “expert” to back up just about any statement.

    Therefore, if you cannot articulate and demonstrate YOURSELF why an opinion is valid, then for the purpose of your debate it really doesn’t matter if some expert agrees or not. This could be used by a person who knows he’s being beaten, basically saying “Well you might have beaten me but I’m sure there’s SOMEBODY out there who could beat you!”



    3. Argumentum ad populum

    Latin: “appeal to the people”



    Ad populum is the notion that you are right because a lot of people agree with you. It’s a little bit like verecundiam, but it’s even worse because you’re just saying that “people out there” agree with you.

    Some time ago, there were an aweful lot of people who thought that the world was suspended on the back of a giant tortoise. Yet, you see, the world is ROUND! Enough said about that; I think it’s pretty obvious.




    4. Argumentum ad ignorantium

    Latin: “argument to ignorance”



    Ad ignorantium is the claim that a statement is true because it hasn’t been proven false, or false because it hasn’t been proven true. When someone makes a statement that hasn’t been proven true, you can’t say that it is false on that basis. You can just say what it is: not necessarily true.

    Thus, ad ignorantium is essentially warping the burden of proof and setting the debate up such that you opponent must perfectly prove his point, or else you win. This is rather juvenile; the purpose of debate is to find solutions, not to win. So should you employ this debate, and get away with it, it will have been a hollow, meaningless victory.

    Due to the nature of logic and exploration, mankind would still be trying to discover the means of making fire if ad ignorantium was considered valid. Every discovery that has been made has obviously begun as an unproven idea.

    People had to explore the possibility that it might be true in order to discover it.

    There are a couple of other similar fallacies that I’d like to cover here.

    One is argument from incredulity:

    “I don’t see how that could be possible, so it must not be true.”

    This is an invalid statement. If you don’t see how something could be possible (even though you can’t prove that it’s NOT possible), then the REAL problem in this situation is that you don’t see very well.

    The other similar fallacy is the Nirvana fallacy. Nirvana fallacy is a bit like obsessive-compulsive disorder.

    It’s a common form of argumentum ad ignorantium, used like this in political debate:

    “Your solution to this problem will not solve it to perfection, therefore it is wrong and my way is best.”

    This is a common usage. However, real life is often not a matter of certainties and absolute solutions. Often you must enact whichever measure will do more good than the other. You can’t enact the one that’s perfect, because… it doesn’t exist.

    Thus, Nirvana fallacy fails to realize that part of life is choosing the lesser of two evils, in a sense.

    Now, there is a fine line to be observed with argumentum ad ignorantium.

    In my view, you can say that you think your statement is true, but you cannot present it as FACTUAL just because there is no evidence against it. Conversely, another person is welcome to disagree with you, but he cannot claim your position to be certainly false.

    Thus, you are welcome to give your opinion, but you should not propagate it or tout it as factual unless you have real, substantial evidence.

    That is the nature of ad ignorantium; it’s sort of a vicious circle.




    5. Argumentum ad misericordiam

    Latin: “appeal to pity”


    This is a fallacy that appears on the forum in various forms. It is VERY common in politics.

    I’m doing the very best I can not to bring my personal political leanings into this, but let’s use a relevant example.

    Health Care (Yes, sorry it’s kind of an American-centric example at the moment) What is something we are CONSTANTLY seeing in the health care debate today?

    “My sister lives in Canada, and she needed an emergency operation and HAD TO WAIT IN LINE!!! She almost died, but we rushed her to the States and they got her in right away! US health care is wonderful as it is!”

    And then you have the other side:

    “My sister lives in the States, and she needed an emergency operation but SHE HAD NO INSURANCE!!! She almost died, but we rushed her to Canada where we were able to get her in without needing insurance. Private insurance companies are evil!!!”

    Both examples are true; neither one is valid.

    Because in any dete like this, there are millions of people involved. And out of those millions of people, you will no doubt find an example of private health care working marvelously, and you will find an example of socialized medicine working marvelously.

    And if you base your argument on solitary examples, you and your opponent could be spamming news items at each other until doomsday.

    To bring it home, I see many debates on the forum where people take a solitary news item and run away with it. I’m saying this only in hopes that such tactics will be discouraged. In political debate, we need to have more of a broad, landscaped view usually. There is a place for the ‘solitary news item,’ but it should be used SPARINGLY.

    Another way this fallacy is used is to patronize people and bestow upon yourself a certain image which appeals to the emotions. A politician can go a long way with an image of “the poor man’s friend” even if he has lousy ideas.





    6. Argumentum ad nauseum

    Latin: “argument to the point of nausea”


    That’s right; arguing until you’re blue in the face, so to speak. This is EXTREMELY relevant to the forum, because it takes hold on just about every major debate.

    There is a point at which people expend their supply of relevant arguments and they have nothing new to bring to the table. However, people are by nature very proud, and they also like to have the last word.

    And once they run out of new things to say, the debate usually degenerates into a shouting match. I remember one debate where this almost literally happened. I will tell you for the purpose of example.

    I bear absolutely no ill will to the other guys in that debate, because I was just as guilty as them.

    It was an abortion debate. And it’s not long before that debate becomes a moral/philosophical debate. And moral/philosophical debate means that it is subjective. And subjective means that there is no standard. And no standard means that everybody has their own meaning.

    You cannot debate a topic in which everyone has their own meaning; it’s a mess. But we tried to.

    And I’m sure you can imagine what happened. The debate basically became:

    “You shouldn’t kill unborn babies!!!”

    “Should TOO!”

    “Should NOT!”

    “Should TOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!”

    And that’s how it went. We were slightly more articulate than that, but basically we repeated exactly the same argument (or maybe two arguments) over and over, as if by saying it 100 times we would be more convincing than if we said it only 10 times. In the end, we realized that we had transformed the debate thread into a festering spam pit.

    And that’s how a lot of debates go, and one of the overarching problems on the TWC. A lot of debates which, by all that is just, should just STOP with people agreeing to disagree, go on and on until they finally endure a painfully slow death.

    So, the lesson is, that when you have nothing new to add, you should acknowledge this.

    Now, that may mean that the nature of debate is that the topic cannot be proven one way or another by empirical evidence.

    Or, you should consider the very real possibility that YOU… are… wrong. I know, I know, as impossible as it sounds, you may actually be wrong once or twice in your lifetime. So be a big boy/girl, admit it, and stop plaguing the TWC with tired old arguments that have been defeated already.

    However, should you choose to hold the opinion you had before, that’s fine; Just don’t annoy everyone else with it unless you come upon some new evidence.



    7. Reductio ad rediculum

    Latin: “appeal to ridicule”


    Now we come to another scourge on levelheaded debate: the strawman. The strawman argument is very common; so much so that it must just come naturally to people.

    The strawman argument is basically stuffing words into your opponent’s mouth. You basically make up an argument and tell everyone, “this is the argument those people (your opponents) use!” Thus you make your opponent look ridiculous, and make yourself look prophetic.

    You basically are trying to rig the debate. You set yourself up against a flawed premise, destroy it as planned, and project the results onto your opponent. This is foolish. Never presume to know all your opponent’s arguments like that.

    Strawmen are bred by a lack of real opposition. If the only people with which you have discussion are people who AGREE with you, you will receive nothing but the best of your argument and the worst of the other side. After all, if anybody knew all the great arguments from the other side, they might be on the other side!

    So, you content yourself with “devil’s advocate” arguments. Well, obviously your opponent agrees with you, so he’s not going to make it hard. He will feed you weak arguments (after all, he doesn’t know the other side’s strong arguments if you’re the only person he debates with), and you will feel brilliant.

    Then you get out into the real world, and decide to have some opponents for breakfast. Suddenly you make the unpleasant discovery that your devil’s advocate opponent didn’t make a few points. So you decide to stuff your devil’s-advocate arguments into your opponent’s mouth, because you know you can beat those. Or, you just make the superficial assumption that you know all the arguments he will bring up, and decide to defeat them before he brings them up.

    And thus strawmen are born.

    Now, I want to briefly cover some different aspects of this fallacy.

    Reductio ad absurdum is more or less the same thing. I will apply it to a manifestation of ad rediculum.

    Ad absurdum is basically taking your opponent’s argument and carrying it out to an absurd conclusion, thus demonstrating that the argument itself is absurd.

    I hate to do it, but I’m going to do it. I will take an example from the gun control debate, because it’s the best example I can think of. Honestly, if someone can put this in similar terms without actually using a real controversy, I will gladly substitute it, because I REALLY don’t want you to feel that this is cluttered with my own opinions.

    Here goes:

    “You want guns to be legal? WOAH! You might as well legalize…. ICBM’s!!!”

    Well, it would be really stupid to allow ordinary people to possess nuclear weapons. So it’s really stupid to allow ordinary people to possess guns, right?

    Eh… no. For the very simple reason that guns are not ICBM’s.

    And people use this argument a lot. They equate things like guns to other things like tanks, land mines, and the like.

    This tactic is reductio ad absurdum. Making a slightly (even if it’s only VERRRY slightly) flawed conclusion or analogy.

    It would also be worth mentioning that analogies, by nature, are the weakest form of argument. If you have to make a comparison to something completely different to make your point, then chances are it’s because your analogy is flawed. And it is VERY easy to accidentally form a flawed analogy. That’s one reason why you discuss things with people of different opinions; to make sure that you don’t do things like that.

    And, lastly, we have the Red Herring. Again, essentially the same idea.

    In a way, the red herring is opposite than the form of this fallacy we just saw.

    Instead of making an inconsistent conclusion to defeat another’s argument, the red herring is an inconsistent conclusion that YOU use to distract your opponent and make your position seem stronger than it really is. You’ve probably used this one on little kids before.

    Now, practically speaking, many of these are basically the same. In common speech, people don’t say “ad absurdum,” they say “Red Herring.”

    I’m simply taking the phrases and applying them to different aspects of this fallacy to help you understand the different appearances that the fallacy may take. This is the way my mind works; I’m completely open to suggestions and improvements.

    And now, my friends, we shall depart from the glorious land of poignant Latin phrases, and discuss fallacies that (sadly) are not graced with such “profound” titles.


    8. If-by-whiskey fallacy

    Would a rose, by any other name, smell as sweet?



    I don’t know about you, but when I started debating online, I could detect various ruses that my opponents used to mislead me or demean me.

    Then I started researching logical fallacies, and I discovered that those tactics had names! I thought it was pretty neat.

    Well, during my research for this study, I found the name of another common fallacy, known as a relativist fallacy: the if-by-whiskey fallacy.

    Have you ever noticed, in a controversy, that those who support X will have an entirely different name for their position than the people who are against X? That is if-by-whiskey.

    It comes from Noah S. Sweat, Jr., and his position on the issue of prohibition of alcohol.

    Regarding alcohol, he said (taking parts of the speech):

    “If when you say whiskey you mean the devil’s brew, the poison scourge, that defiles innocence, dethrones reason, and destroys the home, creates misery and poverty, yea, literally takes bread from the mouths of little children, then certainly I am against it.

    But, if when you say whiskey you mean the oil of conversation, the ale that is consumed when good fellows come together, that puts a song in their heart and laughter on their lips; if you mean Christmas cheer, then I am for it.”

    It is a potent example of rhetoric and presentation. Consider a few modern examples, and you’ll realize that this is a natural thought pattern (people are prejudiced toward things they like) and very common:

    One side calls them TERRORISTS; the other side calls them FREEDOM FIGHTERS
    One side calls them BABY KILLERS; the other side calls it PRO-CHOICE
    One side calls it a VIOLATION OF THE RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH; the other side calls it FAIRNESS
    One side calls them ASSAULT WEAPONS; the other side says they’re no different other FIREARMS

    Yes; in every controversy each side will pick a name that most suits their viewpoint. Certain names conjure up certain impressions. Thus, if you want people to support your cause, you will call yourself a freedom fighter because it sounds so noble and brave. If you are against someone else’s cause, you’ll call them terrorists because people will associate them with psychotic mass-murderers.

    So always, ALWAYS remember the if-by-whiskey fallacy. In short, think critically; don’t take things like this at face value.



    9. Slippery slope fallacy

    Arguments as stepping-stones.


    This is used almost every time someone dislikes a viewpoint, and in partisan politics it never ends.

    Slippery slope suggests that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of relating events, causing massive unintended (and harmful) consequences.

    Essentially, slippery slope is a conspiracy theory based upon the assumption that your opponent is inherently evil and devious, and supports certain ideals in order to facilitate dark, self-serving motives.

    Thus, your thinking is that everything he does is merely a stepping stone to some devilish scheme.

    The slippery slope, like most of these fallacies, is not inherently without foundation. For example, legal precedent means that a legal decision now WILL affect future decisions, and that is very important.

    So let’s use another example. Since I used a pro-gun example, I might as well use an example from the other side.

    Gun registration. It is the opinion of many people that gun registration is simply a method of finding out who owns guns, in preparation for taking them all away. I.e., put all guns on record so that we can take them away efficiently.

    That could be an example of the slippery slope fallacy. However, as I said, there is a fine line between logical conclusion and slippery slope.

    My own perspective, if I may inject it for a moment, is that gun registration has among its supporters, many people who openly acknowledge their desire to ban all firearms. Therefore, it might not be so fallacious to suppose that gun registration is a means of doing that.

    However, again discretion is paramount, and gun control supporters are not demon-possessed. I will discuss this in a moment.

    I’ve even had people anticipate this from me. I recall recently that, although I at least didn’t mean to be excessive, my opponent made a little joke that he was making plans for world domination.

    And that’s the way we think sometimes. Let’s break it down.

    You have an opinion. Obviously, it’s in your best interest to form opinions that are accurate, relevant, and productive. Thus, your opinions at least SHOULD be the things that you think are the best, whether in personal relationships or in politics.

    So you think that your way is the best, and that’s not necessarily bad. But then you see that someone else has a different opinion. Well, as far as you see, your opinion is in the better interest of mankind. Thus, your opponent’s opinion, being different and/or contradictory to your opinion, is wrong and flawed.

    So you wonder, why does he have a different opinion, when mine is in the best interest of mankind? Well, the only conclusion is that he WANTS to subvert and manipulate in order to grab power, money, and influence. It’s just human nature to think that way.

    Thus, it would be a good idea for you to remember that, generally, your opponent is, in all honesty, supporting what he thinks is best. Now obviously there are subversive people out there, and there are lots of them. You need to use your discretion.

    Remember, however, that this is an Internet forum, and your opponent has absolutely nothing to gain by supporting his opinion. If his opinion was formed for the purpose of world domination, he would be out running for office, not debating from his house.

    So, referring back to the gun issue, you can be fairly confident that your opponent (in the gun debate) honestly believes that either gun freedom or gun control will be the best option. In this case, that depends on their effect on crime.

    So for the purpose of internet debate, the odds are that someone serious enough to sit down and discuss something with you has honest intentions, and thus you should err on the side of avoiding the slippery slope fallacy.

    So in summary of that psychoanalysis… use discretion.




    10. False dilemma

    You are either for me, or against me.



    The false dilemma is also common in debate. It is essentially making the invalid assumption that there are only TWO options in the case you are considering: your idea, and your opponent’s idea.

    There is no middle ground, no compromise, and no third option.

    Creating this illusion often makes it easier for a debater to force his opinion, and perhaps try to widen the margin between your idea and his. Even though both ideas need improvement, he can gain leverage by stating that his idea is better, and applying the false dilemma.

    I mentioned earlier that in real life, we have no perfect solutions, and that sometimes in debate, the best position is that which chooses the lesser of two evils.

    If you take that idea too far, you will in fact create a false dilemma. Maybe your idea in it’s pure form is the lesser of two evils, but what if you combined parts of your opponents’ idea? Remember that you are not infallible.

    Here is a great example from Wikipedia:

    There are a lot of car accidents on this road. We must reduce the number of car accidents. There would be no car accidents if we closed the road. Therefore we must close this road.

    Remember, there is a thin line between legitimacy and fallacy; discretion is important with this issue.




    11. Godwin’s law

    You Nazi you!



    Godwin’s law is based in humor, but (sadly) has a very relevant application in internet debate.

    As you know, the mask of anonymity tends to transform otherwise reasonable people into obnoxious trolls who flame, exaggerate, and insult. (Don’t be one, by the way.)

    Thus Godwin’s law was formed out of half-joke-half-truth.

    The essence of Godwin’s law is, that whenever “Hitler” or “Nazi” enter a debate, you can consider it closed. In internet debate, it is sometimes popular to grab an opponent’s argument and compare it with Nazi Germany.

    This ties into a couple other fallacies we’ve covered: first, the slippery slope fallacy.

    You are making the assumption that, because this person’s idea loosely corresponds to something that occurred at some point in Hitler’s regime that this idea will LEAD to a new Germany!

    As absurd as it sounds when you put it that way, people use it. Besides slippery slope fallacy, it is also an ad hominem.

    Let’s face it. Why do people like to make comparisons to Nazis? SHOCK VALUE. It makes people recoil in surprise and disgust, hopefully alienating your opponent’s viewpoint.

    Now, there is a definite place for comparing contemporary measures with the past. In fact, history is CRUCIAL, especially in political debate. However, history can, of course, be misapplied, and this is a case of misapplication.

    Sadly, real politicians even use this tactic. Those who follow recent US politics have probably heard a number of politicians recently refer to their counterparts as “SS storm troopers” or “brown shirts.” I’m sure that this has occurred in every country at some time or another.

    This is ENTIRELY inappropriate, and it is my personal opinion that any politician who is that desperate to take a shot at his opponent should receive a GREAT deal more criticism than they have.

    Our legislators are supposed to be an example to citizens and the world, and as such should be FAR above such petty and (frankly) juvenile measures.



    12. Non Sequitur

    Latin: “it does not follow”


    Yes! Another profound Latin phrase!

    Non sequitur is essentially a completely random statement thrown into a discussion. While it is quite possible (in internet debate, at least) that someone doing this is simply out of their mind, hung over, or very tired, it can also be used to distract or confuse an opponent.

    It is definitely a tactic to be aware of, as a devious debater could use non sequitur to start a chain reaction in the debate; first causing confusion, and then perhaps ridiculing you for being confused, and so on.

    For example:

    Q: How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb?

    A: Fish

    Although that isn’t the sort of thing you would see in debate, you get the idea of the nature of non sequitur.




    Finally, I just want to note that I have already gotten feedback, and there are some things that I intend to change already. Basically there are caveats to the rule, and I need to communicate that a little better.
    Last edited by Ariovistus Maximus; 10-30-2009 at 05:31.
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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    You forgot one:

    Argumentam ad Tribesman:

    Bollox.
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    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Do the esteemed Mods agree that this should be stikied? It might provide useful guidance/reference...
    Last edited by al Roumi; 10-30-2009 at 12:42.

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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    I for one will compliment your list of fallacies. Great job!!

    But if I should add some constructive criticism I would want you to clarify the Non Sequitur section of your post. The randomness is less common. The more common fallacy of this type is the use of false conclusions to valid premises.
    Also if you are going to expand your list I would have added these fallacies:

    Red Herring
    Petitio principii(Begging the question)
    Ad hominem Tu quoque (you too)
    Argumentum ad antiquitatem (appeal to tradition)
    Argumentum ad numerum (Appeal to numbers)

    A while ago I tried to introduce formal debates to the orgahs. We had a few articles in the gahzette about this and we tried to organize a few real formal debates with referees, where the best one was published in the gahzette. Sadly it was only a brief spark before it died.
    Link to the first gahzette article (It is the Backroom article).
    Last edited by Sigurd; 10-30-2009 at 12:45.
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    Zoodling Millipede Member Ariovistus Maximus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Thanks everyone for the compliments!

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    You forgot one:

    Argumentam ad Tribesman:

    Bollox.
    You're right; he deserves special mention.

    I for one will compliment your list of fallacies. Great job!!

    But if I should add some constructive criticism I would want you to clarify the Non Sequitur section of your post. The randomness is less common. The more common fallacy of this type is the use of false conclusions to valid premises.
    Thanks! Good clarification.

    Also, yes there are an ABUNDANCE of fallacies, and still a good many that are commonly used in internet debate! I will probably start in on some more (and some fixes) later this afternoon.

    You know, I've had a similar idea myself. To have a sort of courtroom-style debate. There is little to no closure in debate as it is, and as I'm sure you know, people just come away irritated at their opponent and don't even CONSIDER the possibility that their opponent is right, even if they "won" the argument.

    So people continue to post the same old thing because they don't feel that they've been disproven.

    If it were feasible, it would be cool to have a couple of members who act as a panel of judges, and then at the end of the debate, they could rule as to which case was best presented.

    Of course, there are many flaws with that idea, and I'm told that it's not feasible. It is asking quite a lot.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Argumentum ad antiquitatem
    :wave: Hello Evil Men from Mars.
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Now we just need an "argumentum ad pretending to have a phd in economics when they don't really"

    Normally, the backroom is made of informal arguments and discussion. And it's easy to point out the logical fallacies in someone elses casual argument while leaving your own statement as "In my opinion this is a bad idea".

  8. #8
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    You missed one of the most common:

    13. Tu quoque

    Or, you too, nanny-nanny-boo-boo!

    [A] Latin term that describes a kind of logical fallacy. A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions. [...]

    You-too version

    This form of the argument is as follows:

    A makes criticism P.
    A is also guilty of P.
    Therefore, P is dismissed.

    This is an instance of the two wrongs make a right fallacy. [...]

    Inconsistency version

    This form of the argument is as follows:

    A makes claim P.
    A has also made past claims which are inconsistent with P.
    Therefore, P is false.

    This is a logical fallacy because the conclusion that P is false does not follow from the premises; even if A has made past claims which are inconsistent with P, it does not necessarily prove that P is either true or false.

    Example:

    "You say aircraft are able to fly because of the laws of physics, but this is false because twenty years ago you also said aircraft fly because of magic."


    -edit-

    And how could I forget one of my all-time favorites:

    14. No true Scotsman

    Or, moving the goalposts.

    No true Scotsman is a logical fallacy where the meaning of a term is ad hoc redefined to make a desired assertion about it true. It is a type of self-sealing argument. [...]

    When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy is employed to shift the definition of the original class to tautologically exclude the specific case or others like it.

    A universal claim is of the form "All x are y" or "No x are y." In the example above, the universal claim is "No Scotsmen are brutal maniacal rapists." (No S are BMR.) The counterexample is given by the Aberdonian, who, it is implied, is a brutal maniacal rapist. The response relies on a continued insistence that No Scots are brutal maniacal rapists, and to thus conclude that the brutal maniacal and rapacious Aberdonian is no true Scot. Such a conclusion requires shifting the presumed definition of "Scotsman" to exclude all brutal maniacal rapists.
    Last edited by Lemur; 10-31-2009 at 04:44.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Here's the thing though with these fallacies, some of them are just absolutely essential in discussion or debate to get things going (and others like ad Tribesman and ad hominem at times are just entertaining). Take appeals to authority, very important in all kinds of matters. Appeals to popularity and tradition also can sway my opinion a lot.

    These so called logical fallacies (most of the ones listed) actually have very little to do with logic formally (they should actually be called "what some consider to be bad forms of reasoning"). For example, Sigurd brought up begging the question as an example of a fallacy. Actually, in purely logical terms (again logic is concerned with syntactical form of statements), circular reasoning is deductively valid - the epitome of "logic"). The only reason we don't like that type of argument is because:

    1) it seems cheap (it probably is cheap - but it's logical )
    2) Aristotle was playing some game and didn't want people to beg the question and so we use one of his crappy game rules to this day as one of the no-no's for discussion/debate (why does this guy have so much continued influence? )

    And nothing makes me facepalm more when some guy comes in and says "OH argumentum ad ............... you're wrong lol!" Because (and I believe this also gets included in those lists of logical fallacies) just because someone makes a fallacious argument does not mean his point or his conclusion is false or wrong. On the flip side, anyone can support a false/wrong point or conclusion using an argument with a perfectly logical form. Already too much emphasis is put on the argument and not on the conclusion/point being made.

    I like (some of) the org debates because aside from calling out strawmen (which should be done definitely kills discussion) these debates aren't usually flooded with people making laundry lists of the above mentioned fallacies. Which is good.

  10. #10
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariovistus Maximus View Post
    In fact, researching this makes me cringe in memory of some stupid things I’ve said. (Isn’t learning great? You get to find out what an idiot you used to be!)
    I know what you mean, I look like a troll when I first came into the backroom. Probably when I look back in a year or so I'll think of how stupid I look now.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  11. #11
    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariovistus Maximus View Post
    You know, I've had a similar idea myself.

    If it were feasible, it would be cool to have a couple of members who act as a panel of judges, and then at the end of the debate, they could rule as to which case was best presented.

    Of course, there are many flaws with that idea, and I'm told that it's not feasible. It is asking quite a lot.
    Just to let you get an idea of how we did it back then.
    This is the only debate we finished : Crazed Rabbit vs. Waldinger (now woad&fangs)
    The ruling was not posted in the thread, but in the December number of the gahzette also in the Backroom section.

    You can find other debates by clicking on the Debate prefix to the thread names (Backroom). It was originally meant for formal debates, but have later been used indiscriminately to any whim of the thread starter. You will find the oldest threads with the prefix: Debate to be the true debate threads.
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  12. #12
    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Reenk Roink View Post
    Here's the thing though with these fallacies, some of them are just absolutely essential in discussion or debate to get things going ... Take appeals to authority, very important in all kinds of matters.
    It only becomes a fallacy when used wrong.
    Argumentum ad verecundiam
    only becomes a fallacy when using authority figures that aren't really authority figures, or using radical authority figures which is removed from the mainstream i.e goes against other qualified authority figures.

    A great example is quoting Albert Einstein in matters of politics or religion. Now Einstein was a clever guy, but his field of expertise was physics not politics or religion.
    Last edited by Sigurd; 10-30-2009 at 19:04.
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Reenk Roink View Post
    And nothing makes me facepalm more when some guy comes in and says "OH argumentum ad ............... you're wrong lol!" Because (and I believe this also gets included in those lists of logical fallacies) just because someone makes a fallacious argument does not mean his point or his conclusion is false or wrong. On the flip side, anyone can support a false/wrong point or conclusion using an argument with a perfectly logical form. Already too much emphasis is put on the argument and not on the conclusion/point being made.

    I like (some of) the org debates because aside from calling out strawmen (which should be done definitely kills discussion) these debates aren't usually flooded with people making laundry lists of the above mentioned fallacies. Which is good.
    I agree. And even with the strawman fallacy, there's strawmanning someone and then there's reading between the lines and following things to a possible conclusion (which might not be what the person intended).

    Also, sometimes people only talk about two option because they don't feel like exploring every option. False dichotomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    It only becomes a fallacy when used wrong.
    Argumentum ad verecundiam
    only becomes a fallacy when using authority figures that aren't really authority figures, or using radical authority figures which is removed from the mainstream i.e goes against other qualified authority figures.

    A great example is quoting Albert Einstein in matters of politics or religion. Now Einstein is a clever guy, but his field of expertise was physics not politics or religion.
    But even so, it's absolutely silly to call "logical fallacy" on a post like:

    We should keep the 2nd amendment like we always have, after all, thomas jefferson said that we had the right to self defense
    since the gun control argument boils down to "under what circumstances do individual rights trump collective well being". You can't use really logic to decide that. Additionally, the evidence used (crime statistics etc) always has confounding variables and can be argued to be biased one way or the other. An actual argument against gun control would take into account the trade off between individualism vs collectivism, use empirical data involving many different studies, and in short would require many hours of work and extensive resources--not "argumentum ad tradition and argumentum ad authority!"

    What we generally do in the backroom is chip away at it. Logically valid arguments and cited sources are nice and all, but it's kind of like having an umpire for a backyard baseball game.

    But then again the:

    *posts crappy source article*
    argumentum ad authority! My opinion is correct!
    Citation, Please!
    *posts crappy source article*

    exchange is part of the backroom charm

    I don't know, some threads I feel like people should put more effort into thinking their arguments through, others I feel like doing so is an exercise is naivety given the scope of the argument.
    Last edited by Sasaki Kojiro; 10-30-2009 at 19:26.

  14. #14
    imaginary Member Weebeast's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Argvmentvm fanboivm ad infinitvm:

    Spartans vs Romans

    It's not really something worth arguing. Romans didn't "appear" like aproximately 300 years later. For the sake of internet it's Ok I guess.

    Spartans, in their prime (sometime before the battle of Leuctra) would have massacred the Romans - the training and skill of the Spartans would have proved too much for any opponent, even the Romans.
    Jumped to conclusion too soon. The person not taking into account the diversity of Rome's enemies and other stuff like multiple fronts. So he/she believes Romans were just bunch of Aventine Hill mobs. The person also believes hoplite army conquers the world! Also of course the person had to ignore the fact that Sparta got owned by Thebans out of all superpowers.

    the legion formation, although effective against a traditional phalanx, was virtually worthless against Cavalry (Thessalonians, Companions, etc).
    Clearly the person is talking about Macedonia which is not Sparta. Not validating the argument that Sparta is better than Rome.

    When is the "prime" of the Roman army? If you knew anything about its history you would know that it fluctuated more on the ability of its commanders than any certain point in history. Macedonians under Alexander > any Romans.
    Had the person said "Sparta under Leonidas" he/she would've have refuted himself. Blunt point nonetheless.

    The Spartan was better just on the basis that they went virtually undefeated in a fixed, open-pitch battle until Leuctra where they were defeated by the Thebans (approx 300+ years). Individually the Spartans outclassed most of the best Roman soldiers.
    If we were to grab another example of his/her conclusion it would look like this:

    Aztecs were just better on the basis that they went virtually undefeated in battle until the Spaniards came around. Individually, Aztecs outclassed most of the best Napoleon troops.

    Clearly his/her fanboyhood clouds his judgement.
    Last edited by Weebeast; 10-30-2009 at 20:05.

  15. #15
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Argumentum ad Danielhannanum
    Weekly quoting in full that week's alarmist column by Danial Hannan to show how evil the EU is.

    Also known as Argumentum ad Torygraphicum


    Argumentum ad Predictarium
    When a poster is of such firm yet unimaginative conviction that he might as well suffice with saying 'hi' in a thread and we all know his position.

    Come to think of it, too many of these posters have left. Pity, really.


    Argumentum ad Joycamtouringum
    Trying to outwit your opponent by confusing him.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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  16. #16
    Zoodling Millipede Member Ariovistus Maximus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Here's the thing though with these fallacies, some of them are just absolutely essential in discussion or debate to get things going (and others like ad Tribesman and ad hominem at times are just entertaining).
    I would hardly call them essential.

    I could start a debate entitled:

    "Banquo's Ghost is an evil, amoral censor," and that would definitely get discussion going.

    But that hardly means that would be productive, relevant, or helpful. And it seems to me that this sort of thing occurs often enough to warrant greater attention to the intricacies of logic in debate.

    Take appeals to authority, very important in all kinds of matters. Appeals to popularity and tradition also can sway my opinion a lot.
    Well that's the very nature of fallacy; it's a good thought/method that is slightly warped somewhere along the line.

    Thus, there is indeed a fine line in many cases between a fallacy and a valid argument.

    For instance, in court, you could say that a witness' testimony is an 'appeal to authority' of sorts, if for instance that individual was the sole witness. But it isn't considered fallacious for obvious reasons.

    These so called logical fallacies (most of the ones listed) actually have very little to do with logic formally (they should actually be called "what some consider to be bad forms of reasoning").
    Most of them are informal fallacies, yes. The point is that people, in an attempt to employ "logical" arguments, commit fallacies.

    Because (and I believe this also gets included in those lists of logical fallacies) just because someone makes a fallacious argument does not mean his point or his conclusion is false or wrong.
    Of course not. Ironically, you are making the strong implication that the notion of fallacy is false because it has not been proven true. This is, of course, a fallacy. However, I will not simply call out the fallacy, but explain why I think it is so.

    Are you familiar with truth tables?

    When is the only time that a statement is considered valid in a truth table? When it is a tautology.

    For instance, the fallacy of the converse.

    If I am human, I can speak.

    Therefore, if I can speak, I am human.

    Well, of course not. Parrots can speak. (And of course handicapped humans cannot sometimes speak due to the handicap, but for sake of example.)

    So, I could use that argument, and most of the time I would be correct. Usually, if I pointed to a thing that could speak, it would be human.

    But occasionally I would point at a parrot or parakeet.

    Thus, an argument may be TRUE, but that does NOT necessarily make it VALID.

    And we are discussing the validity, not the truth, of arguments.

    On the flip side, anyone can support a false/wrong point or conclusion using an argument with a perfectly logical form. Already too much emphasis is put on the argument and not on the conclusion/point being made.
    So, in summary, you are throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.

    Yes, debate is still not cut and dried. Discretion is required.

    But it's still a good idea to avoid invalid arguments, and there's certainly no reason to legitimize invalid arguments just because they are correct upon occasion.

    The truth of an argument is different from case to case; obviously you can't come up with a set of rules.

    However, if you try to avoid methods of argument that more often than not tend to false conclusions, you will be more productive.

    I like (some of) the org debates because aside from calling out strawmen (which should be done definitely kills discussion) these debates aren't usually flooded with people making laundry lists of the above mentioned fallacies.
    Agreed. And really, I'd also agree that fallacious statements aren't the end of the world in a relaxed discussion.

    As I said, if you've read the essay, this was written for the TWC. The D&D there is structured differently than the backroom here at the .Org.

    The D&D is more toned for debate, and the backroom has a little more of a friendly discussion atmosphere IMO.

    So, it may not be as applicable, but I would say that it's a good thing to keep in mind.

    And yes, the flip side of the coin is that you can't just scream "FALLACY!" and leave it at that, either.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 10-31-2009 at 08:51. Reason: Original example would have definitely got the thread locked
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    I would hardly call them essential.

    I could start a debate entitled:

    "Banquo's Ghost is an evil, amoral censor," and that would definitely get discussion going.

    But that hardly means that would be productive, relevant, or helpful. And it seems to me that this sort of thing occurs often enough to warrant greater attention to the intricacies of logic in debate.
    But you didn't follow the rules of logical debate in this response

    You threw them out the window completely.

    His statement boils down to "starting an argument with a fallacy is a good way to spark discussion". To measure how true this is in an objective way you would have to have a large sample size of threads, criteria for determining whether the thread was started with a fallacy or not, and criteria for measuring how good the discussion was that resulted. This would have to be judged by a set of unbiased judges.

    That's unfeasible, so you have to argue against it in a subjective, casual way. Which is what you did--you pointed out an example of a thread that you thought wouldn't go well and left it at that. Logically, you can't disprove a claim that fallacies are essential to starting good arguments by posting an imaginary anecdote where a fallacy leads to a bad argument. You would instead have to show that non fallacies could lead to good threads.

    Which I would be fine with if the whole thread wasn't going on and on about how important logic is to debate.

    And yes, the flip side of the coin is that you can't just scream "FALLACY!" and leave it at that, either.
    FALSE DICHOTOMY

    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 10-31-2009 at 08:52. Reason: Edited quote

  18. #18
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariovistus Maximus View Post
    Ironically, you are making the strong implication that the notion of fallacy is false because it has not been proven true.
    wtf? No I'm not.

    And we are discussing the validity, not the truth, of arguments.
    Discussing validity: that's something that may have use in a beginners (non-mathematical) logic class. However, in debates, your reasoning really doesn't matter as much as your assumptions, assertions, conclusions, etc. Statements are the thing that should matter, not the argument itself. At least that's what I think.

    I could care less if you concluded that guns are evil/good through a disjunctive syllogism as compared to say affirming the consequent. What I would look at in that discussion is the background premises that led to that conclusion. That's far more interesting than the actual argument form (unless the guy said that he logically proved that guns are evil/good which people here basically never do). Obviously, if the error in the argument is so blatantly invalid, then it deserves to be pointed out. But the logical fallacies you have listed are really not used in such obvious ways at all, people generally avoid blatant offenses of them.

    By the way, affirming the consequent is a formal logical fallacy (like it is actually a real 'logical' fallacy). And yet so much of how we reason is dependent on that argument form... Keep this in mind when I later discuss your point about trying to eliminate invalid arguments.

    So, in summary, you are throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
    Again, where did I say the "notion of fallacy is false"? I'm just making the point that it is somewhat irrelevant. Argument form is much less important to me than assertion substance in a discussion. The actual premises of the argument are what really matters, not the argument form itself. Take one of the many cosmological arguments for God. They are deductively valid - nice and logical. Does that matter at all when they are discussed? No. What matters is the discussion of the truth value of the assertions that make up the premises themselves. The Teleological argument is an invalid, inductive argument. Is it's invalid form the major point of critique? Of course not, it is the substance of the premises themselves.

    But it's still a good idea to avoid invalid arguments, and there's certainly no reason to legitimize invalid arguments just because they are correct upon occasion.
    Why? Nobody is trying to legitimize invalid arguments either by the way, you have ascribed a position that I have not taken in this thread - this is a strawman, unintentional or intentional.

    By the way, be VERY careful of advocating the elimination of invalid arguments. Do you realize the consequences of eliminating everything except non-ampliative reasoning, fallacious as ampliative reasoning may be?

    However, if you try to avoid methods of argument that more often than not tend to false conclusions, you will be more productive.
    No, no, no, no, this is where I must draw the line. You will indeed be hard pressed to actually show that fallacious arguments actually lead to false-conclusions considerably more than non-fallacious arguments.

    Logic, or more specifically, the logical structure of an argument has absolutely no bearing on the truth/falsity of the conclusion (aside from tautologies and contradictions of course). What does matter is the truth/falsity of the premises themselves.

    The only thing you could state is that valid deductive arguments do not lead to false conclusions when their premises are true so yes, you may be right in that sense. That statement is so incredibly impotent and irrelevant though... The reasons being that many arguments are inductive and thus do not get this benefit and determining the truth/falsity of the premises is still the prerequisite for the truth/falsity of the conclusion.
    Last edited by Reenk Roink; 10-31-2009 at 04:20. Reason: cause i can...

  19. #19
    Zoodling Millipede Member Ariovistus Maximus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    I knew I was just asking for it by writing that essay.

    I'll never escape the constant criticism every time I say something wrong!!! AAAAAA!!!

    Lol j/k of course, but the thought has crossed my mind.

    That's something that may have use in a beginners (non mathematical) logic class. In debates, your reasoning really doesn't matter as much as your assumptions, assertions, conclusions, etc. Statements are the thing that should matter, not the argument itself. At least that's what I think.
    Point taken.

    The essence of my thoughts there is simply that, although you are correct in saying that logical continuity and validity is not the sum-total of debate, it generally tends toward better debate.

    That's aaaalllll I'm saying. Simply pointing out that there is a balance.

    You don't have to be a validity-Nazi, but you shouldn't ignore the notion of validity either.

    OK? OK.

    You will indeed be hard pressed to actually show that fallacious arguments lead to false conclusions more than non fallacious arguments.
    Possibly.

    However, if you take a gander at the average online debate forum...

    By the way, be VERY careful of advocating the elimination of invalid arguments.
    Fish.

    Oh... right.

    At any rate, I'm not saying that they should be eradicated any more than you are saying that they should be the only means of discussion. I'm just suggesting that you might not want to intentionally employ them on a regular basis to make your point.

    Logically, you can't disprove a claim that fallacies are essential to starting good arguments by posting an imaginary anecdote where a fallacy leads to a bad argument.
    Simply providing a counterexample to demonstrate what I have mentioned above: that balance is important.
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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    6. Argumentum ad nauseum

    Latin: “argument to the point of nausea”


    This would have been by biggest fault when I first came to the backroom.. that and the proud...

    I still have a bit of both but I think I have improved a little bit

    Argumentum ad Joycamtouringum
    Trying to outwit your opponent by confusing him.

    I swear Frunculus uses the words Demos and Kratos in every other EU post to deliberately confuse me...
    Last edited by LittleGrizzly; 10-31-2009 at 04:23.
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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Ad Loviticus

    I love this thread so much I don't know where to start. Kisses!
    Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!

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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    I love this thread so much I don't know where to start. Kisses!
    You need to take a class.

    I'd recommend Reenk Roink but he's a little bit conciliatory.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    I'd recommend Reenk Roink but he's a little bit conciliatory.
    No, he isn't.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    instant classic

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    Ad Loviticus

    I love this thread so much I don't know where to start. Kisses!
    Dreadful pun, but it raises a valid point I was going to make,

    Argumentum ad Creditum

    That is, an argument that appeals ultimately to a belief system in the face of evidence and against reason. Equally, "Christianity teaches" or "Marxism demonstrates".
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Gentis Daciae Member Cronos Impera's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly View Post
    6. Argumentum ad nauseum

    Latin: “argument to the point of nausea”


    This would have been by biggest fault when I first came to the backroom.. that and the proud...

    I still have a bit of both but I think I have improved a little bit

    Argumentum ad Joycamptouringum
    Trying to outwit your opponent by confusing him.

    I swear Frunculus uses the words Demos and Kratos in every other EU post to deliberately confuse me...
    Beware of Argumentum ad Joycamptouringum, it can stop a train, it can freeze your coffee, it can boil your ice cream and it can turn Banquo into a Bartixian camel.
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  27. #27
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariovistus Maximus View Post
    I knew I was just asking for it by writing that essay.

    I'll never escape the constant criticism every time I say something wrong!!! AAAAAA!!!

    Lol j/k of course, but the thought has crossed my mind.

    At any rate, I'm not saying that they should be eradicated any more than you are saying that they should be the only means of discussion. I'm just suggesting that you might not want to intentionally employ them on a regular basis to make your point.
    Oh don't get me wrong, your thread is one of the few interesting ones for me (I rarely post or even venture in the Backroom anymore - and when I do I just look for the Tribesman threads for his wit and barbs.

    It might be better served at a different audience than the Orgah one though, as here, not many people go "This is my argument and it is completely logical so the conclusion must follow" rather they usually have these background assertions that they hold which are incompatible with some other people and then they .

  28. #28
    Zoodling Millipede Member Ariovistus Maximus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Reenk Roink View Post
    It might be better served at a different audience than the Orgah one though, as here, not many people go "This is my argument and it is completely logical so the conclusion must follow" rather they usually have these background assertions that they hold which are incompatible with some other people and then they .
    Definitely.

    The .Org has an atmosphere more of discussion than formal debate, so this is not as relevant.

    Interesting they take on different forms like that.
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    Guest Azathoth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ is a great site.

  30. #30
    Zoodling Millipede Member Ariovistus Maximus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Logical Fallacies: a Study

    Also try www.nizkor.org

    I was directed there from the TWC. Excellent resource. Covers everything I did and more, not to mention it is of course of higher quality.
    Last edited by Ariovistus Maximus; 11-01-2009 at 03:43.
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