Dragon Age: Origins gameplay and discussion thread.

[DisruptorX]

Something's gone off in the Bioware formula.

Indeed it has. They decided to finally make a great RPG for the first time since Shadows of Amn to close out the decade. A shocking twist indeed.

If only they hadn't made it so that mages were that much better than everyone else, though. Sure, you technically don't need them, but they are powerful to the point of ridiculousness. As noted, Arcane Warriors trivialize the hardest difficulty. And if you are playing on lower difficulties? Why bother bring the rest of the party! I don't like mages for this reason, it feels like cheating.

The core mechanics, on the other hand, are superb. Fluid controls, good camera, great UI. You'd never know its not a PC exclusive. The ease of control and fun of executing strategy puts garbage like NWN 2 to shame. This is the first time I've played a fully 3d party based RPG that at no time made me wish it was on a 2d engine instead. You never have to fight the controls or the camera. Its also quite challenging unless you abuse mages, which is a break from Bioware's recent fare. All they need to do is balance the next Dragon Age title.

Its not the perfect game that BG 2 was, but its more than I expected and a huge step in the right direction. Fun combat in a Bioware game? More likely than you think. With a class rebalance, more dungeons, and more sidequests in a sequel, it can hopefully only get better.

edit: just as a note, for the love of god, play the PC version. The console version has bad graphics, toned down encounters, and poor control. I'm not normally someone who really cares, I bought Fallout 3 on console so I could kick back and play with the gamepad, but Dragon Age, or any tactical game, is the sort of the thing you don't want to be playing on console.

[Ironside]

Can't fully explain it, but playing DAO has convinced me not to buy Mass Effect 2. Something's gone off in the Bioware formula.

It's another team that is making Mass Effect 2, so it might be good to figure out what you find is off in your opinion, as it doesn't need to be existing in ME2.

[Vladimir]

I'm going to knock this one down a few notches on my overall opinion - it does not replay that well. I left nearly two months between finishing the first run and seriously starting my second so that the second run would feel a bit fresher. Now I'm midway through and there are too many places I didn't want to see again, and too many gameplay choices which feel like they are very weighted in one direction. The plot itself doesn't come off any better.

The game needs better dungeon design, more varied and balanced skill choices, and a better spread of talents in party NPCs.

On the other hand my elven duel wielding rogue is far more dangerous than my mage ever was. I'm breezing through the situatuions which caused difficulty with my mage, doing more damage, and having far more fun. When playing a melee class the control issues I had with my mage melted away. I think to play a mage with full effectiveness you need to be using the PC version.

...

I agree with your assessment.

Mages have a lot of power but rogues have greater potential, ability, and individual effectiveness. I'm sure arcane warriors are great but what can you do when I disappear in front of you and then steal your purse from behind?

[frogbeastegg]

for the love of god, play the PC version. .

Swapping versions wouldn't fix any of the real issues, only the more superficial ones that were more immediately noticable in my mage playthrough. The thought of slogging a third time through the overly lengthy tunnel dungeons of Orzamar, and the tunnel dungeon in the Elven ruin, and the annoying to traverse tunnel dungeon with sky for ceiling that is the second half of the Elven forest, and the tunnel dungeon with trippy effects that is the fade, and the tunnel dungeon in a circle that is the mage tower, and the tunnel dungeon of the dragon layer, and ... Ugh!

Yes, I really, really hate these corridor obsessed area designs! Especially ones with such drab visuals and plodding "Go the long way just because" design. What is it with modern RPGs and creating more confined spaces than their predecessors? Why are more open and free areas like the Kokari Wilds or the first area of the forest so rare in modern RPGS? I was tired of it by Oblivion, sick to death of it by Fallout 3, and by Dragon Age the mere thought of a tunnel dungeon fills me with loathing. :thinks longingly of the open spaces of Baldur's Gate:

EDIT: Here, an overworld map of Baldur's Gate which displays maps of each main area. Look at all that open space where you are free to wander about as you will! That made the tunnel dungeons feel like a change of pace and something special. Since the advent of 3D RPGs even the outdoor areas have been closer to corridors than spaces.

[Scienter]

frogbeastegg, your post makes me want to play Morrowind again. I loved that game so much.

[Vladimir]

frogbeastegg, your post makes me want to play Morrowind again. I loved that game so much.

Agreed. Perhaps the cost of modern, realistic game design limits their openness. Most people are confined enough in their daily lives that they don't want to pay for the pleasure of being forced down another hallway. (Another rogue plug) Openness allows you to exercise a little creative thought as you go about solving a particular meat and bone problem. The wilds were a fun area and some areas were quite tricky if your party didn't have a long range punch.

[DisruptorX]

Yes, I really, really hate these corridor obsessed area designs! Especially ones with such drab visuals and plodding "Go the long way just because" design. What is it with modern RPGs and creating more confined spaces than their predecessors? Why are more open and free areas like the Kokari Wilds or the first area of the forest so rare in modern RPGS? I was tired of it by Oblivion, sick to death of it by Fallout 3, and by Dragon Age the mere thought of a tunnel dungeon fills me with loathing. :thinks longingly of the open spaces of Baldur's Gate:

True. BG 2 didn't have any of those areas, though. And you are forgetting how absolutely atrocious the dungeons in BG 1 were, due to the pathfinding and characters blocking each other. BG 1 had a good number of dungeons. And BG 2 was mostly dungeons, and fantastic.

Now, I love BG 1, and would love to see more games with great open areas to explore. I didn't really like the open area battles that do exist in Dragon Age, though, since you can't chokepoint.

[al Roumi]

Also, in BG 1 and 2, you had to trudge around to discover those areas. Better role-playing yes, but some times arduous. Then again, the fact you can't fast travel out of a dungeon in DAO is simply a pain in the .

Thing is, BG2 had a lot of "loose" content which is probably not seen as "concentrated" enough with narrative and action. I have never been that enthused with DAO's plot, it's almost too brash and obvious. BG wasn't neccessarily subtle but it was deeper I felt (it could just be that i was more impressionable when I played BG1 and 2).

I certainly can't face even a 2nd play through of DAO, the length of those dungeons is too great and too repetitive.

The silly pantomine-style hyper-gothic full plate armour is far too much for me (what is going on with those pauldrons????). Plus, not having played an MMO ever (i can't be the only one, surely!?), the whole combat system with "tanks", "dps" and "agro" is farcical, naf and too constricting for me.

/walking stick waving rant

[frogbeastegg]

And you are forgetting how absolutely atrocious the dungeons in BG 1 were, due to the pathfinding and characters blocking each other.

No, I'm not forgetting anything. In the depths of dark and stormy nights, unbeknownst to my waking mind I probably have nightmares about a group of adventures clanking about in armour, struggling to line up in a simple 2 rank formation as the phrase "You must gather your party before venturing forth." endlessly loops.

In fact BG might have been the very first stirrings of what grew into my dislike for tunnel dungeons. I didn't enjoy the dungeons in BGII much either; my fonder memories of the game are all linked to plot, character, or the freeform wonder of exploring areas like the starting city and taking on subquests. My general dislike of the dungeon crawling aspect of the BG series is the reason I didn't like Icewind Dale much. An entire game full of tunnel dungeons, gah!

Plus, not having played an MMO ever (i can't be the only one, surely!?)

You are not alone.

[DisruptorX]

The dungeon is kind of the RPG genre's thing. That, and dragons. Now, no doubt you can have a good RPG with no dungeons. Well, thats theoretical, I don't think I've ever played one.

What I wonder is if a game like Baldur's Gate would seem as open if it were in 3d and you could actually view the whole zone, rather than a tiny (especially in default 640x480) box of the whole. If it actually seemed as big, that'd be fantastic, but even Oblivion felt tiny. That could just be one of the many(many, many, etc) faults of Oblivion itself though. The whole map is a giant basin, so you can always see the entirety of the province.

[Meneldil]

I don't think the difference between BG and DAO is the 3d.

In BG, you could walk around in any given region (except for the dungeons, yes). I later games (KoToR, ICWD, NWN), you always have to follow a godamm road between two hills/two forests/two walls.

Even the most open areas of NWN2 (the forest in MotB) or DAO (the forest too) feel that way. You have a road, and you follow it. The limits around the road are just a bit farther than usual.

Now, I know most people here don't like MMO's, and especially hate WoW, but at least in WoW, you could run around and explore for real. Even without going to the most hidden places (the Troll village near Auberdine, Mount Hyjal, etc.), you could still go back to a province and find a place you've never seen before: a cavern of some sort, an abandonned village, a few easter eggs, etc.

[frogbeastegg]

My lexicon has two varieties of dungeon. Tunnel dungeons, which I loathe, and dungeons, which I do not.

Tunnel dungeons are the ones which are designed like a tedious, half hearted maze of corridors without much thought other than "We need to take up a bunch of space." and "The player should have to slog their way around most of it." Think of areas like the Deep Roads, any sewer map, any mine map, Fallout 3's and Oblivion's underground areas. They are dull to explore, visually dull, limited in gameplay (the whole chokepoint mechanic is all you really get to use in tactics), predictable, and entirely over-prevalent across the genre.

Dungeons are much better, and rather a scarce creature in games. A dungeon without 'tunnel' stapled in front of it is an enclosed area primarily designed for combat and exploration/looting which does not take the form of a wannabe rat maze. Dungeons like the D'Arnise keep in BGII are more enjoyable to explore, and tend to be more interesting as actual areas.

Although my two sets of examples seem to split the difference along whether an area is a building or not, building are not immune from being tunnel dungeons. The mage tower in DA:O is an excellent example of a building that's a tunnel dungeon: limited exploration, only one path, and loads of walking the long way around because a designer saw fit to make a door impassable while fighting off the same couple of creatures in the same scenery for floor after floor until you want to scream.

Fallout 3 demonstrated the difference quite well. It had a few hundred tunnel dungeons ... and it had the various big factories, the library, the museum and others.




I think BG in 3D might retain some of that open feeling, since deep down it's a case of open and free by comparison. If a 50x50 map is entirely open for you to walk where you wish it feels more open than a 100x100 map that is made up of glorified corridors.


Edit since this went up as I was typing:

You have a road, and you follow it. The limits around the road are just a bit farther than usual.

Yes, that's it exactly.

[DisruptorX]

I don't think the difference between BG and DAO is the 3d.

In BG, you could walk around in any given region (except for the dungeons, yes). I later games (KoToR, ICWD, NWN), you always have to follow a godamm road between two hills/two forests/two walls.

Even the most open areas of NWN2 (the forest in MotB) or DAO (the forest too) feel that way. You have a road, and you follow it. The limits around the road are just a bit farther than usual.

Well, that has much do to with the fact that all of those post BG games are poorly and lazily designed and are overall mediocre games. Dragon Age still has much of that design in it. I rate it highly because I think the combat is really fun, due to the ease of control I spoke of earlier and the challenging fights (mage abuse aside). Dragon Age plays like a great RPG, even if its overall level design is like kotor et al.

I agree with both you and frog that the level design in Dragon Age is not perfect, I am simply pleased by the gameplay and consider that a higher priority. This marks the first time since the BG games that Bioware seems to have put any thought into including a combat system that is any way strategic and I like that. Sure, its abusable, but whatever, so was BG, and how.

Unfortunately, from what I have heard, and which Bioware employees seem to corroborate, is that we will never see another Baldur's Gate 2 from Bioware. It was too hard to make, in terms of effort.

I like open RPGs too. My favourite RPG after the 2 Baldur's Gate games is SSI's Shattered Lands, which has interesting dungeons and interesting non-dungeon locations. Its also not nearly to the same scale as Baldur's Gate 2, which is rather unique in how immense it is. I don't think its really fair to hold all RPGs up to BG 2, as it is the finest game in the entire genre. That doesn't mean that one should tolerate messes like NWN 2, of course, but Dragon Age is clearly superior to that game in every category, and does all the things that previous 3d party based RPGs have messed up right, such as smooth controls, good cameras, UI that doesn't get in the way, etc.

[frogbeastegg]

I wonder if there's enough people here to get an RPG replay thread going? Play through some of the older - and maybe not so old - games and post opinions on how well they hold up.



NWN2 became a very good game with its two expansions and various patches. The original release was absolutely dire though, I agree. NWN1 on the other hand, ugh. Only Jade Empire keeps it from being the worst Bioware game.

Bioware have grown quite complacent. They found a formula with KOTOR and have been rehashing it in various shapes for years now. Prologue -> first real area -> crisis plot point -> choose the order to play these 3 or 4 overarching areas in -> bit where bad things happen when one area out of the overarching selection is left and/or the major plot tiwst takes place -> 'surprise' area where you do a load of fighting -> finale. Each of the overarching areas will have at least one big dungeon area, two clear cut good and evil sides which you need to choose between, and some kind of big boss battle. Meanwhile, for your party, there's the romanceable noble, drippy male character with a tragic past, the romanceable innocent female, the romancable more experienced female, the hulking and gruff warrior with a hidden soft side, the comedy character, the wise old man/woman, and the bundle of under-developed tag-alongs. There's a 50% chance that you will be captured at some point in the game and have to escape. There's a 25% chance one NPC will betray you. You will always hit the level cap before the end game if you explore even a bit. And so on.

I loved KOTOR. I'm tired of playing it's base formula in different skins.

[Krusader]

I wonder if there's enough people here to get an RPG replay thread going? Play through some of the older - and maybe not so old - games and post opinions on how well they hold up.



NWN2 became a very good game with its two expansions and various patches. The original release was absolutely dire though, I agree. NWN1 on the other hand, ugh. Only Jade Empire keeps it from being the worst Bioware game.

Bioware have grown quite complacent. They found a formula with KOTOR and have been rehashing it in various shapes for years now. Prologue -> first real area -> crisis plot point -> choose the order to play these 3 or 4 overarching areas in -> bit where bad things happen when one area out of the overarching selection is left and/or the major plot tiwst takes place -> 'surprise' area where you do a load of fighting -> finale. Each of the overarching areas will have at least one big dungeon area, two clear cut good and evil sides which you need to choose between, and some kind of big boss battle. Meanwhile, for your party, there's the romanceable noble, drippy male character with a tragic past, the romanceable innocent female, the romancable more experienced female, the hulking and gruff warrior with a hidden soft side, the comedy character, the wise old man/woman, and the bundle of under-developed tag-alongs. There's a 50% chance that you will be captured at some point in the game and have to escape. There's a 25% chance one NPC will betray you. You will always hit the level cap before the end game if you explore even a bit. And so on.

I loved KOTOR. I'm tired of playing it's base formula in different skins.

Hey, if Baldur's Gate 2 is made available on gog.com you can always try a 6-player Coop if possible...if it is possible over the net. Remember we tried it over LAN when it came out, but unfortunately it was during the Counter-Strike craze so we ended up playing Counter-Strike instead.

As for Bioware becoming complacent...I agree, but they found a formula which gives them profits, so from a business perspective so they must think "why change it?" I just hope they don't go Activision though, which a part of me fears with Mass Effect series. Although seeing how they have problems getting Return to Ostagar out for Dragon Age, maybe there wont be as many DLCs.

As for dungeons VS open-world, yeah that was one point with Dragon Age I disliked. Fallout 3 was also tunnelish, but at least they gave the impression it was open enough. Morrowind though is my favourite "open world" game. World of Warcraft too, but there were some "tunnel issues" there too, notably the numerous mountains & hills separating zones, making it only possible to leave or enter through select areas.

[rajpoot]

I'd like a game with a story like a Bioware RPG, with an open world like Morrowind....

The one thing I don't like in the Bioware formula is that the actual 'accessible' game world is very small.

Still, as long as they keep writing the stories and dialogues nicely, I'll be getting the games. Granted that it's getting repetitive but still there aren't many RPG that are half as good. I mean in the recent years, IMO there were hardly any RPGs that were brought anything new and noteworthy to the genre.....The Witcher was one, then there was Mount&Blade.....the rest were more or less average.....DA:O, stands, well above the average ones at least.

[DisruptorX]

Still, as long as they keep writing the stories and dialogues nicely, I'll be getting the games. Granted that it's getting repetitive but still there aren't many RPG that are half as good. I mean in the recent years, IMO there were hardly any RPGs that were brought anything new and noteworthy to the genre.....The Witcher was one, then there was Mount&Blade.....the rest were more or less average.....DA:O, stands, well above the average ones at least.

I think VtM: Bloodlines did the action-RPG sub-genre perfectly, better than Mass Effect even, though I loved Mass Effect's retro sci-fi aesthetics.

As for Baldur's Gate multiplayer...it honestly isn't that much fun. There's a number of little things that combine to make it irritating. Firstly, the game pauses during dialogue. This happens more than you would think. Secondly, each player wants to pause during combat, so the more players you have, the more pausing. Thirdly, both games are pretty tough, and quickload isn't so quick in MP. You can play it on virtual LAN over Hamachi, though, done it once or twice. As much as I like the game, it doesn't work as well as an RPG designed from the ground up for MP.

[Scienter]

I think VtM: Bloodlines did the action-RPG sub-genre perfectly, better than Mass Effect even, though I loved Mass Effect's retro sci-fi aesthetics.

I loved that game! It's a shame they didn't make more. Maybe they will now that vampires (although wussified) are popular right now. Or did the company who made it go under?

[Lemur]

I loved that [Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines]! It's a shame they didn't make more. [...] Or did the company who made it go under?

That would be Troika Games, and it's thoroughly deceased. Shame really, since both Arcanum and VtM:Bloodlines had the potential to be true groundbreakers, were they not rushed, buggy, etc.

There's great fan-based mods and patches for VtM:Bloodlines.

[Beskar]

I loved that game! It's a shame they didn't make more. Maybe they will now that vampires (although wussified) are popular right now. Or did the company who made it go under?

I know you mean about twilight, but you haven't seen what the Japanese are currently doing with Vampires. Let's say it is very taboo in Western Culture.

[Vladimir]

That would be Troika Games, and it's thoroughly deceased. Shame really, since both Arcanum and VtM:Bloodlines had the potential to be true groundbreakers, were they not rushed, buggy, etc.

That's unfortunate.

I agree. Although I could never bring myself to play an "evil" vampire the game itself was remarkable and an incredible journey.

I wonder if there's enough people here to get an RPG replay thread going? Play through some of the older - and maybe not so old - games and post opinions on how well they hold up.

Perhaps there will be interest this summer. I remember my attempt to play through the entire BG series again, only solo. I went through a lot of preparation, repurchasing, and modification only to play the game and realize how alone I felt during play. Perhaps that's a result of getting older .

Instead of a book club it would be like a game club. Each player can add their own twists and relate the adventure making it feel like a story.

[Meneldil]

I know you mean about twilight, but you haven't seen what the Japanese are currently doing with Vampires. Let's say it is very taboo in Western Culture.

Huh man, you've obviously never watched a vampire porn movie.
Just for your information, the first modern vampire novel (Carmilla) is about a more or less openly lesbian vampire. It's been written by an Irish, in...1872. 25 years later Dracula followed the same path, with some quite erotical scenes (such as Jonathan Harker being blood-sucked to exhaustion by 3 vampire babes).
Nowadays, we have Anne Rice's books. Most of them have homosexual and bisexual sex scenes, involving two or often more characters, with some of them being barely legal (as in being immortal but looking like 14 year old teens). Tbh I found some of these books quite disturbing and unappealing.
Vampire is also a quite fashionable theme within the fetishist and gothic subcultures.

Japanese vampires are lame, just like pretty much anything comming from japanese pop culture. Gross and silly at the same time, full of clichés, weak plots, and what not.

[Xiahou]

That would be Troika Games, and it's thoroughly deceased. Shame really, since both Arcanum and VtM:Bloodlines had the potential to be true groundbreakers, were they not rushed, buggy, etc.

There's great fan-based mods and patches for VtM:Bloodlines.

I'm apparently the only person on the planet who found the un-modded, vanilla Bloodlines to be completely playable. A couple glitches, a few CTDs, sure. But, it was never anything close to the unplayable bug-ridden mess most people tell me it was.

I won the game 3x without ever feeling the need for fan-made content or patches.

[DisruptorX]

I'm apparently the only person on the planet who found the un-modded, vanilla Bloodlines to be completely playable. A couple glitches, a few CTDs, sure. But, it was never anything close to the unplayable bug-ridden mess most people tell me it was.

I won the game 3x without ever feeling the need for fan-made content or patches.

No, the bugginess is extremely overstated. Its no more buggy than say Fallout 2. Actually, its less buggy.

[frogbeastegg]

I'm apparently the only person on the planet who found the un-modded, vanilla Bloodlines to be completely playable. A couple glitches, a few CTDs, sure. But, it was never anything close to the unplayable bug-ridden mess most people tell me it was.

I won the game 3x without ever feeling the need for fan-made content or patches.

I played through the game at release with no patches, and other than a few minor glitches and some broken triggers in side quests it was all ok. The source engine was a bigger problem - it always makes me terribly motion sick.

[Ironside]

I suspect most of the bug issue was the one that could crash your game so you couldn't pass that point, thus being unable to finish the game normally. Then we also have that door that was almost impossible to open or when your computer changes into a furnature.

Still love that game and malkivian playthrough is still among the funniest games ever imho.

"Police officials has gone on record saying: Don't worry that crazy bastard will save him."
"One witness stated that the exchange was all like pow, pow, ah take that, oh you got me, take that, blam, aiee."
Or telling Jack about his plan... Without knowing it.
Among the easier to find we have the pet turtle.

[Meneldil]

Return to Ostagar has been released, finally.

The pros:
- Some new lore (regarding Cailan and Celene, the orlesian Empress)
- Some new banters (mostly with Wynne, Alistair, Loghain and occasionally Dog)
- It's only 3€

The cons:
- A shameless rehash of Ostagar, with a snow texture and some Darkspawn stuff. There's only one new zone.
- A new plate armor set. Huho, as if the game wasn't already filled with those. During my warrior playthrough, all 4 plate wearing characters had a full set, and I still had 2 or 3 more in my inventory, while I couldn't get any leather or cloth set.
- Cailan's armur is utterly useless. It's made for tanking, but requires a huge amount of strenght that no tank characters is going to reach at any time. Who the hell took care of the itemization?
- The new zones are all corridor-ish, even Ostagar camp.

All in all, I'm kind of disappointed. The lore ain't that exciting. The fights are overly easy. The loot is useless. Not a single new texture or stuff (unlike Stone Prisonner). Oh well. For 3€ I guess I shouldn't have expected anything better.

[Krusader]

Return to Ostagar has been released, finally.

The pros:
- Some new lore (regarding Cailan and Celene, the orlesian Empress)
- Some new banters (mostly with Wynne, Alistair, Loghain and occasionally Dog)
- It's only 3€

The cons:
- A shameless rehash of Ostagar, with a snow texture and some Darkspawn stuff. There's only one new zone.
- A new plate armor set. Huho, as if the game wasn't already filled with those. During my warrior playthrough, all 4 plate wearing characters had a full set, and I still had 2 or 3 more in my inventory, while I couldn't get any leather or cloth set.
- Cailan's armur is utterly useless. It's made for tanking, but requires a huge amount of strenght that no tank characters is going to reach at any time. Who the hell took care of the itemization?
- The new zones are all corridor-ish, even Ostagar camp.

All in all, I'm kind of disappointed. The lore ain't that exciting. The fights are overly easy. The loot is useless. Not a single new texture or stuff (unlike Stone Prisonner). Oh well. For 3€ I guess I shouldn't have expected anything better.

I'll echo that. Took me 20 minutes with listening to dialogue and team-banter.

3 € x 10 = 30 € which is the price of the next Dragon Age expansion.
So that means 20 minutes x 10 then doesn't it? A little over 3 hours of game time in the expansion perhaps?

[Meneldil]

This is why DLC are fundamentaly terribad. They can argue about the low prices as much as they want ('it's not even the price of a big mac, come on!'), we're still being ripped off. Poorly designed content that takes 20 minutes and doesn't really add anything to the game = fail.

[Scienter]

I know you mean about twilight, but you haven't seen what the Japanese are currently doing with Vampires. Let's say it is very taboo in Western Culture.

You've piqued my curiousity. Too bad I'm at work, there's no way I'm googling about Japanese vampires from here!