Actually, I had thought this question was subsumed by the fourth in my list, referencing Western ideals etc. As you rightly point out, any efforts at nation building, however well intentioned, are far more readily justified in terms of national security interests than they are in terms of promoting self-determination (that being at least partly oxymoronic).

I agree that the accounting war has been AT LEAST as effective if not more than military efforts. You had a number of other interesting points. I will confess to a moment of melodrama. I get upset by stupid actions on the part of my nation. Foremost among these include the use of force -- and blood -- stupidly. If you are going to put that most precious resource on the line, then you go in to win (like a million US ground troops in Afghanistan and Iraq each to actually suppress the problem) or you don't go. Of course, that would require political leadership that was willing to make hard choices, so it isn't going to happen. I wonder, given all of the examples we can cite, why so may TW players think the AI's diplomacy is that bad...

There is much truth in this Banquo. However, if you accept that collateral killings such as the hypothetical example you cite are inevitable, the corallary is that military action can never be used -- which begets its own host of problems.

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Your last sentence had me smiling.

The rest of your paragraph is exactly my position too. I've gone to war and seen my comrades die - but for a defined purpose, and with (just) sufficient resource to achieve it. Most importantly, with an iron political will behind the decision. I've also sat bemused in a meaningless, seemingly endless conflict against terrorism whilst politicians pontificate to hide their cowardice.

The military option should always be the last. I can understand the drive to attack Afghanistan militarily because it would have been an extremely brave and capable president who could have resisted that demand after 9-11. However, for a fraction of the cost, one or other of the Taliban could have been bribed to hand over bin Laden or assorted warlords set after him. The Talib were only holding out for a better price, but because we don't understand how things work, we mistook their refusal as a refusal. I suspect enough gold would have had bin Laden in an American court and thence frying nicely by the end of the next year.

However, this would have been a politically brave choice, so going in militarily, knocking the Taliban about a bit and then withdrawing would have sent the appropriate message. Then getting the pocket book out to keep the warlords fighting each other and paying for every al-Q'aeda head brought on a platter would have kept them happy and busy. I don't understand why the nation-building foolishness came in - except as a result of neo-con lunacy drunk on the Iraq plans.

At the same time, security services have got better and better at working together against the terrorists. The accountancy example is just one to demonstrate how we have in fact, got a lot safer. However, we will never be entirely safe, but politicians won't say this. Continued collateral killings and occupations make us far less safe, and this isn't said either.

The corollary doesn't follow. There have been many effective wars where the death of civilians has caused resentment, but not terrorism. They have usually been short, with a defined purpose that finally benefitted the local populace so forgiveness could follow. Generational wars of occupation bring deep bitterness that acquires its own mythos - and takes generations to dissipate.

Finally, by their very foundation and nature, the United States are not an imperial power. To subjugate somewhere like Afghanistan, not only would you need a million men, but the will to inflict cruelties and wickedness for a great many years. Soviet Russia couldn't even subjugate those brave people and they had a real track record in the necessary skill-set. Jefferson was right.

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That plan is precisely what I thought (at the time) was going to happen. That we (all) still have boots on the ground today has me flummoxed.

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