Pontos Bodyguards Downgraded?

[Rahwana]

Seriously guys... when I see my new bodyguard unit I get, I try to compare their EDU and I fount they are worse than their Khuvesavangan predacessors? Well, is this intended or a bug?

[XSamatan]

Bodyguard changes (down and upgrades) are linked to the Vanilla Marian reforms (aka if the Romans build a huge city in Italy). Do that is intended and shows the processing of the fighting style

XSamatan

[Fluvius Camillus]

I know, I guess it is just historical, but don't those new BGs just look awsome The same horses as the chariots'.

~Fluvius

[anubis88]

Indeed. I also think they have +2 morale

[Rahwana]

Well, maybe they are harder to rout, but the Reform should give some edge on their combat skill too. even if not clearly seen, they are weaker than their predacessors (even their coolness can't save them from death). It's just like replacing the old with the weak but newer....

Maybe someone could give citations that late pontos BG was weaker than early pontos BG?

[Ludens]

Maybe someone could give citations that late pontos BG was weaker than early pontos BG?

I think it was in the 170 BC edition of Jane's Military Review.

Seriously: there very likely is no such reference as we do not have detailed information about most unit types. It does seem counter intuitive that the resurgent Pontos would have downgraded its Royal Guard, so this probably is a stat error. I am going to move this to the main forum so it will get more attention. EB moderators: if you disagree, feel free to move it back.

BTW, could someone post their EDU entries so we can compare them side by side?

[Cute Wolf]

The Old Pontos BG (Khuveshavangan BG)

type eastern cavalry persian early bodyguard
dictionary eastern_cavalry_persian_early_bodyguard ; Persian Early Bodyguard
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier eastern_cavalry_persianheavy_earlybodyguard, 10, 0, 1
mount hellenistic kataphraktoi horse
mount_effect elephant -1, chariot +2
attributes sea_faring, general_unit, hide_forest, hardy
formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 5, 44, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 200 ,0.4
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 11, 25, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.11
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 17, 12, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, metal
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
stat_mental 16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 2322, 0, 39, 311, 2322
ownership carthage

The late Pontos BG (Based on Hetairoi)

type hellenistic cavalry pontos late bodyguard
dictionary hellenistic_cavalry_pontos_late_bodyguard ; Pontos Late Bodyguard
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier hellenistic_cavalry_hetairoi_molossianagema_ponitclatebodyguard, 10, 0, 1
mount hetairoi companion horse
mount_effect elephant -1, chariot +2
attributes sea_faring, general_unit_upgrade, hide_forest, hardy
formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 3, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 5, 44, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 200 ,0.4
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 11, 25, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.11
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 15, 12, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, metal
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
stat_mental 18, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 2122, 0, 100, 160, 2122
ownership carthage

Hmm..... it's looks like they trade -2 armour for +2 morale..... I think it was downgraded too, because the morale could be easily modified by traits, while armour isn't.... but afterall, I think their new, hellenic armours are a bit lighter, so they should get Very_hardy on the newer versions, instead of hardy...

Maybe someone with better knowledge of Pontic kingdoms could help us with historical evidences.

Perhaps if you don't like your pontos BG being downgraded, you can erase the general_unit_upgrade, and those general BG are as dead as Eqvites Singvlares.

[XSamatan]

OMG, not my day...first beat me foot then you

XSamatan

[ziegenpeter]

Is it possible, that the early BG arent in the unit list 1.2?

[anubis88]

Is it possible, that the early BG arent in the unit list 1.2?

They are not listed as Early bodyguards. They are the royal kinsmen cavalry i think

[Foot]

Our stat system is based on "What You See Is What You Get". The idea of an upgrade is absurd, as if the generals of the ancient world assessed their new fads and fashions in something as oddly abstract as stats. The early pontos bodyguards were likely based on the reformed heavy cavalry of the Achaemenid Persians, and so we based their early bodyguard on such designs. Later, we know, that they became more Hellenised and so they based their army upon those of the Greeks, hence their use off the Hetairoi. The fact that in our system the Hellenic Hetairoi have less armour than the Persian bodyguards is neither here nor there.

Foot

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Except Hellenic generals bg have more armor than Persian style bodyguard. Only the Pontic version has less. Is this perhaps an oversight? I can't picture the differences between the Pontic Hetairoi and the AS/Mak/Ptoli ones.

[anubis88]

AFAIK the Pontos Hetairoi were used for the first time after the Hellenistic ones dissapeared entirely.... So they wouldn't be the same, but just simmilar

[Rahwana]

AFAIK the Pontos Hetairoi were used for the first time after the Hellenistic ones dissapeared entirely.... So they wouldn't be the same, but just simmilar

So, at least they should have their stats as high as the Hetairoi Bodyguards of AS and Ptolies, that's what I think.

[Foot]

So, at least they should have their stats as high as the Hetairoi Bodyguards of AS and Ptolies, that's what I think.

What you think is not necessarily what the stats say. They may not have the same armour as the Hetairoi of other factions. I don't know if we will be able to change anything for a bug release, but you are more than welcome to change the stats yourself.

Foot

[ziegenpeter]

Foot, what would you say are the most accurate stats?

[Cute Wolf]

I think, the late Pontos BG are just replica for the original Hetairoi, and for that reason, they are logically less effective, and hence "downgraded" rather than updated...

[Apázlinemjó]

I think, the late Pontos BG are just replica for the original Hetairoi, and for that reason, they are logically less effective, and hence "downgraded" rather than updated...

The funny is that they are quiet capable against the Companions.

[Cute Wolf]

The funny is that they are quiet capable against the Companions.

just don't forget the stat-boosting command stars..... so 7 star Pontos FM could easily dispatch 2 star AS FM.....

[antisocialmunky]

The pontic bgs have higher charge and lance lethality(+.02).

Epeirote BGs are still the best melee cavalry in the game due to their stupid high defense and stamina.

[Apázlinemjó]

just don't forget the stat-boosting command stars..... so 7 star Pontos FM could easily dispatch 2 star AS FM.....

Tried it in custom battle. :p