Dev blog #3

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

"It's all SEGA's fault."

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, that seems to be tainting all his throughts. 'Sega won't support another TW if it keep getting bad reviews.' Though it really should say 'Sega won't keep supporting CA if their quality control is lacking.'

[Fisherking]

Remember, they send it on to Sega for a final QC approval.

So what does that tell you?

[Richard Sharpe]

sounds like the voice of a company with series issues, both internally and externally. I wouldn't invest in any sort of business venture with them at the moment I'll tell you that.


I am thankful they gave me four previous enjoyable games. Even more thankful that creative and dedicated modders existed to change those good games into various masterpieces.


However, its sad to see the king of the herd fall. Oh well, had to happen sometime.

[Beskar]

I will say one thing. Stop completely bashing RTW and M2:TW. While there are some gameplay elements which needed improving on, they were very good games.

R:TW was the game that got me into the series, and I enjoyed it and still do.

While I admit many mods made the games more fun, like EB, Lands to Conquer (I love the diplomatic system of that), etc. The developers should take ideas from these.

As for historical accuracy, it doesn't completely have to either, by the very definition of a Total War game, it evolves Ahistorical. It is a snapshot of a certain period of time then you model it from different angles, etc, that is what makes the game fun.

That is the rant at some of the kill joys, now at the developers.

Stop accusing the hardcore fans of everything, E:TW had some serious errors, from constant CTD and major flaws in other areas. Seriously, quit it. You released a shoddy product, you can blame Sega, but you did, accept it and move on. In E:TW, you also promised many things which were simply not given, such as the developers kit and the multi-player campaign in any shape or form.

What I have said ages ago and what you should do, is fix the errors, do what must be done, then release the developers kit and allow the community to make the game a great game.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Beskar
So completely bashing RTW and M2:TW.

Your opinion is worthy of respect, as is though mine.

No doubt you feel targeted because you believe that:

While there are some gameplay elements which needed improving on, they were very good games.

and because...

R:TW was the game that got me into the series, and I enjoyed it and still do.

My point of view comes from a certain part of the fanbase that started playing TW well before RTW arrived on the scene. I dont claim to be "enlightened" or "superior" or the "true fan" or anything, and i try to offer factual evidence wherever possible and available for what i say and imply.

As far as i am concerned "joy killers" should have been people who liked the gameplay offered by RTW/M2TW; but this is making it personal and i firmly believe that such an approach does not have a place in the .org because it polarises things uneccessarily - people are who they are and like what they like; my resentment and critique is with the developer, not with anyone else. You feel like praising CA for their games past RTW because you sincerely like them, please go ahead; i just feel like criticising them though, because i sincerely dislike them. Calling names and branding people though isnt particularly wise or just.

Different parts of the fanbase enjoy different things, and disagreeing as to what we like and dislike is by no means excuse for making it personal, for example i respect econ21 and enjoy reading his posts, despite squarely disagreeing with him on a number of things.

As for historical accuracy, it doesn't completely have to either, by the very definition of a Total War game, it evolves Ahistorical.

No it doesnt - it evolves in an alternate history path that isnt necessarily the one that took place, as history could and can go down various different paths depending on various factors and outcomes of key events (battles, political reforms, power structures, leader personalities, social structures, economic conditions etc). Modelling history means modelling the forces that control its dynamics and check the simulation for this; it does not mean forcing it to behave as real history did - this would be a recreation and not a simulation. Many people commonly brand alternate history paths "ahistorical" and then try to shut off people who mind historical plausinility with the argument that the game would be "ahistorical" anyway as you do here. This is false.

In that context, i talk about historical plausibility and not accuracy per se, because although history could have taken different turns there are also limits as to what could have happened set by the technological, cultural, political and other conditions of the period the simulation is set. Modelling such conditions properly as boundary values for the problem is also part of making a good, historically respectful simulation.

This has nothing to do with the "standard" historical accuracy complain relative to the shade of light in the viking helmets being wrongly depicted in Denmark during spring time Sunday afternoons in 1087AD. You just misunderstood the point.

[antisocialmunky]

Remember, they send it on to Sega for a final QC approval.

So what does that tell you?

Great, Sega tests another one of their myrian game for a few days while the dev team has several years of not being satisfied enough to give it to their friends.

[Beskar]

What is worse is all these reviewers giving the game 10 out of 10... what game were they playing?

[al Roumi]

"It's all SEGA's fault."

Exactly. Why on earth is he saying that though? Is it meant to deflect criticism of CA to their publisher? Will SEGA be happy with that?

Then contradicting the same point by saying "it's almost so much a part of life that its not worth mentioning" is all the more confusing. He's as incoherent as the fans he rails against!

What is the point of the blog?

Diversion? So that people complain about somehting other than ETW?

[kayapó]

Exactly. Why on earth is he saying that though? Is it meant to deflect criticism of CA to their publisher? Will SEGA be happy with that?

Then contradicting the same point by saying "it's almost so much a part of life that its not worth mentioning" is all the more confusing. He's as incoherent as the fans he rails against!

What is the point of the blog?

Diversion? So that people complain about somehting other than ETW?

You know, english is not my mother language and yet I can actually read his blog and understand what he says.

Is it really so hard to understand that his point is saying that the whole "money first" agenda is actually what keeps things running?
He isn't blaming Sega, if anything he is blaming life and how our world revolves arounds money.

I mean seriously, is it really that hard to just read what he is saying.

Mind you I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with his blog, actually he isn't writing for people to agree or not, but most people just glance over the words and read whatever they want not even making the smallest effort to understand what he is saying.

Diversion? Are you serious? By maintaining this blog he is not only putting his face out there to be bashed by senseless accusations but most of all he is keeping the argument alive. This is paradise for neurotic people that need the fix of beloging to a group that bashes on something (not you, just in general)

Anyway to me the part of the blog that stands out is when he said "occasionally successfully!". This is something that just seems to slip by most people. Making big complex strategy games, especially one of the scope of TW series, is not science. This is not a car, it is a colective artistic work. It is a combination of ideas translated to computer code. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't work so well.

Either way I think making a post here is basically pointless since the crowd will always scream and shout when it comes to bashing something together on the internet.

If it ever calms down a bit it might actually see that ETW is a very ambitious game that was unfortunatly rushed. That's it, no conspiracy theories. Not the end of the world, nobody is going to die because of this. The game after all it's patches is actually quite nice if you ask me and totally worth my time and money, but hey...that's me.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

This is paradise for neurotic people that need the fix of beloging to a group that bashes on something (not you, just in general)

Don't get between me and my fix.

And the "money first" argument is absolutely hogwash. Paradox makes arcane spreadsheet games that appeal to a smaller niche, and they're not whining about money problems when their game is buggy. They patch it. Same with plenty of smaller developers who focus on appealing to their core demographic and making the game actually work for them. If casual gamers like it, great, but that's not the focus.

CA's heads got too big for their coders after MTW.

[kayapó]

And the "money first" argument is absolutely hogwash. Paradox makes arcane spreadsheet games that appeal to a smaller niche, and they're not whining about money problems when their game is buggy. They patch it.

In my opinion you are far from correct here. While CA and Paradox are very different in size, the issues that Paradox is having right now are very similar in cause to what happened with ETW.

In the end it comes down to a company only having so much money to alocate to a certain task. In case of Paradox they couldn't afford to test HOI3 forever while knowing that the game was so ambitious and big that it would take a year to play test it with their very limited testing capabilities. For CA it isn't that different, you have to release the game because well...where is the money going to come from to pay the bills?

The paycheks for salaries at CA must not be a joke. Have you ever thought about where the money comes to pay for that when they are between releases? How much money must CA pay every month in salaries and support. This isn't a joke, they probably (I have no idea actually) get the money for development from the publisher and the publisher sets a deadline to get its investment back. CA then does the best it can, with ETW it got a bit out of control, the game was just a bit too big in ideas for it's own good and when the deadline came they just had to cut losses and do what they could.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy into the whole conspiracy theory, we know better then everyone, case where CA is just dumb and can't do a thing right.

And in the end, it is for the money rigtht? But to get more money they need to be doing something right, if they are really so far from doing anything remotely correct then I'm sure CA will be bankrupt in no time.

No please don't think I'm advocating against criticism or argumenting that they could have done differently or better. I just don't buy the whole "we know better, they are stupid" idea.

I know it sounds provocative but please allow me, if CA's business ways are so so bad that every single person on forums around the world would do thousands of times better then they if at the helm of the company, somehow I just don't think they would be in business at all.

[gollum]

Originally posted by kayapó
While CA and Paradox are very different in size, the issues that Paradox is having right now are very similar in cause to what happened with ETW.

Its similar at release only, afterwards its light years away; paradox patches years after, CA has already stopped after 6 months. This is while there is good indication that the majority of players thinks that ETW needs more:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/poll....ts&pollid=3483

For CA it isn't that different, you have to release the game because well...where is the money going to come from to pay the bills?

Again for CA its vastly different because their patch policy is as their state-at-release policy: not good that is. As for the money, is coming in abundance by people who think just like you

...they probably (I have no idea actually)....

Thanks for conclusively clearing the matter then...

I'm sorry but I just don't buy into the whole conspiracy theory...

Its perfectly clear that you dont; you instead buy broken games that stay broken from a company that promises to fix them before release and plays deaf after, 3 times in a row (5 if you count the expansions), and after all this you still advocate faith in them. You have fun your way, others in their way...

And in the end, it is for the money rigtht? But to get more money they need to be doing something right, if they are really so far from doing anything remotely correct then I'm sure CA will be bankrupt in no time.

Well, then in that case corporations and the mafia must be doing everything right
And i think to myself...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRqYMTpXHc

No please don't think I'm advocating against criticism or argumenting that they could have done differently or better.

Never crossed my mind...

I just don't buy the whole "we know better, they are stupid" idea.

Indeed, you seem to fondly prefer the whole "buy broken buggy games and shut up" one.

I know it sounds provocative but please allow me, if CA's business ways are so so bad that every single person on forums around the world would do thousands of times better then they if at the helm of the company, somehow I just don't think they would be in business at all.

On the other hand, and far less provocatively, if every single person on forums followed your line they would never go out of business. Absolute genious

[kayapó]

Its perfectly clear that you dont; you instead buy broken games that stay broken from a company that promises to fix them before release and plays deaf after, 3 times in a row (5 if you count the expansions), and after all this you still advocate faith in them. You have fun your way, others in their way...

I actually am very found of constructive discussions. Not on the internet for obvious reasons but still. Merelly picking appart the text and taking quick jabs like this is a "who has the last word" game doesn't really come out as being fair.

Even though you totally ignored the main idea behind my posts I'll respond to you. What I personally do with my own money and time is actually not relevant for this discussion at all but if you must know I would never buy a game from a big published like Sega right off the box. I actually only bought ETW when I read the forums and comments on how 1.4 was going. I am very happy with my purchase and while I do find annoying glitches in the game it has payed up to its price more then enough.

That said, and what actually matters, is that people read the CA blog and don't even try to understand what he is saying, pretty much like you basically ignored my whole post to just take potshots at it. It is so much easier to just point the finger isn't it?

The way I see it, nothing good can come out of the senseless bashing that goes on most cases like this. There is hardly anything constructive that comes out of these discussions.

kayapó - I did not bring up Paradox as an example of a company that is immune to buggy releases or market pressures. I brought them up as an example of a company that is prosperous while focusing only on their core fanbase. Their games are not casual-gamer friendly. And yet they are still in business, while providing superior post-release support.

Maybe you haven't been following the boards at Paradox but the mood there was very low following the release of HOI3. Oh and guess what most posts, I mean really all of them, were downright accusing Paradox of: "only wants our money", "doesn't care about hardcore fans", "gave in to market pressure and new consumers and dumbed down the game", please stop me when any of that sounds familiar.

I mean seriously if you just go right now and take a glance at the main HOI3 forums and go back one or two pages you'd be hard pressed to think it isn't ETW's forums when it was released.

Anyway...comparing Paradox and CA is not really fair, Paradox is like 12 people with a few very talented and passionate coders that just keep the ball rolling. CA is huge, it's not even close to comparable.

Now you can argue that despite being smaller you like Paradox's games better or that their patch policy (which is extremely controversial believe me) is better and more fair to consumers, but again they are different companies, different games and it is down to your choice.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

kayapó - I did not bring up Paradox as an example of a company that is immune to buggy releases or market pressures. I brought them up as an example of a company that is prosperous while focusing only on their core fanbase. Their games are not casual-gamer friendly. And yet they are still in business, while providing superior post-release support.

How can they do that while CA can't? It apparently doesn't have anything to do with "survival" because Paradox has been in the biz for a while and doesn't look like they're going under. If CA can't afford to make games they want to play without drastic compromises in quality, then maybe they've become too big and need a few lean years to trim the fat.

I'm not going to feed the beast anymore. I bought RTW and M2TW because of the quality of MTW. I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.

[al Roumi]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You know, english is not my mother language and yet I can actually read his blog and understand what he says.

Is it really so hard to understand that his point is saying that the whole "money first" agenda is actually what keeps things running?
He isn't blaming Sega, if anything he is blaming life and how our world revolves arounds money.

I mean seriously, is it really that hard to just read what he is saying.

Mind you I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with his blog, actually he isn't writing for people to agree or not, but most people just glance over the words and read whatever they want not even making the smallest effort to understand what he is saying.

Diversion? Are you serious? By maintaining this blog he is not only putting his face out there to be bashed by senseless accusations but most of all he is keeping the argument alive. This is paradise for neurotic people that need the fix of beloging to a group that bashes on something (not you, just in general)

Anyway to me the part of the blog that stands out is when he said "occasionally successfully!". This is something that just seems to slip by most people. Making big complex strategy games, especially one of the scope of TW series, is not science. This is not a car, it is a colective artistic work. It is a combination of ideas translated to computer code. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't work so well.

Either way I think making a post here is basically pointless since the crowd will always scream and shout when it comes to bashing something together on the internet.

If it ever calms down a bit it might actually see that ETW is a very ambitious game that was unfortunatly rushed. That's it, no conspiracy theories. Not the end of the world, nobody is going to die because of this. The game after all it's patches is actually quite nice if you ask me and totally worth my time and money, but hey...that's me.

Woah! Thanks to Gollum and Alexander the Pretty Good for fielding this one before me...

However, as far as I'm concerned kayapó, for saying the following, you lose all right to pass judgment on my view:

...but if you must know I would never buy a game from a big published like Sega right off the box. I actually only bought ETW when I read the forums and comments on how 1.4 was going. I am very happy with my purchase and while I do find annoying glitches in the game it has payed up to its price more then enough.

What conspiracy theories are you harping on about? The simple fact is ETW was sold (1.0) as a product which did not live up to the expectations that had been built for it. CA seem to have had difficulty accepting that people have a right to be disapointed with them -and I'm sure SEGA gave them a kicking for it.

Business is business. A company that aims high and fails to deliver will end up the same way as one that aims low and doesn't deliver. It's a harsh reality and SEGA are probably not people to take business lightly. Personaly, I don't care who makes the products I buy, as long as they deliver.

But anyway, this is where our understanding differs, or where you have already been through the experience and learned from it -as you waited, and then bought ETW at 1.4. Had ETW 1.5 been released in March 09, I would not have been disapointed and you would not need to be so provocative.

[Fisherking]

You know what?


I can understand the tendency to try to place blame some place else on the part of the Bloger.

But it is still sniveling.

ETW on release was as buggy as a Texas Bean Field, but you know, it isn't now.

They kept their word for the most part and fixed it.

When a problem ceases to be a problem the best thing to do is to go on with life.

Let it go and stop living in the past.

I am sure that both CA and Sega have learned something from this release. I do hope that what they learned is to our benefit.

In ETW now there is a crash reporting system that gives them data to try to identify the problem so it can be fixed.

What Sega found though is a little more disturbing. They found that CA can make them a real bundle when they are in financial trouble.

This is just my opinion, but I think that NTW was slated to be the ETW expansion. It is coming a year from the original release date from ETW.

So Sega must think that the expansion could be a full game and therefore be more profitable.

I am not feeling ripped of, for one thing I haven’t bought it. But I do find it interesting and maybe a touch peculiar, with regards to previous releases.

I think it might be more productive to look at what is coming than what is done and gone.

It doesn’t hurt to remember what happened so that you might know what to expect.

It is just time to dry the tears and move on.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Fisherking
I am sure that both CA and Sega have learned something from this release.

Me too - its the same lesson they learned from the release of RTW and M2TW; that making hyper hyped, buggy unbalanced games with weak AI and flashy graphics and patch them up to the point the majority of SPers cannot tell the bugs anymore, brings in the dough. Its a good one.

Napoleon here we come to live it once more all over again and full price this time!

Alright Fisherking i get the point and clear off now. Apologies ladies and gentlemen.

[Fisherking]

I don’t imagine that CA wants to come off looking like a bunch of money grubbing fools every release.

I doubt that NTW will have near the problems that ETW had.

That doesn’t mean I am going out and preorder it though.

Maybe I will wait for a couple of patches and a price break...


It doesn’t mean we haven’t learned too.