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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Also, you missed this other article which is related by the BBC:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/8347409.stm

    "Free market is flawed"
    No, a survey says some people think that.

    Every time someone calls the USSR Communist I die a little inside. They weren't and they didn't even call themselves that.
    Oh, right, because they take away from the reputation of all those communist states that didn't oppress people, like.....oh, wait, there are none. The USSR was born of Marxism and is a result of putting that oppressive theory into practice. Bah - the plaintive plea that 'real' communism has never been tried is pathetic. It dodges the real issue, which is that every incarnation of a communist state has been oppressive, because the foundation of communism is taking away freedom - it is the state telling people how to live, and punishing those who don't go along.

    I hope that stain on the human soul never returns.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Oh, right, because they take away from the reputation of all those communist states that didn't oppress people, like.....oh, wait, there are none. The USSR was born of Marxism and is a result of putting that oppressive theory into practice. Bah - the plaintive plea that 'real' communism has never been tried is pathetic. It dodges the real issue, which is that every incarnation of a communist state has been oppressive, because the foundation of communism is taking away freedom - it is the state telling people how to live, and punishing those who don't go along.

    I hope that stain on the human soul never returns.

    CR


    Couldn't have put it better myself.

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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Viva la capitalism.


    ya'll just think the reds are gone. Dont worry ima start up my militia soon nough and we will take care of bizness.

    (seriously anyone wanna join my militia)


    On a more serious note. This is a gret day because not only was an evil empire tottering on its dying steps but an entire peoples were freed and reunited with their long lost countrymen (German People)

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    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    An evil bureacracy, to be precise, but that's a bit redundant.
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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Oh, right, because they take away from the reputation of all those communist states that didn't oppress people, like.....oh, wait, there are none. The USSR was born of Marxism and is a result of putting that oppressive theory into practice. Bah - the plaintive plea that 'real' communism has never been tried is pathetic. It dodges the real issue, which is that every incarnation of a communist state has been oppressive, because the foundation of communism is taking away freedom - it is the state telling people how to live, and punishing those who don't go along.
    How many times do I have to repudiate the idea that Marxism is Statist before people will finally accept that it is not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    I hope that stain on the human soul never returns.

    CR
    I'm not going to disagree with you there.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    How many times do I have to repudiate the idea that Marxism is Statist before people will finally accept that it is not?
    .
    So you don't agree with Marxism because it needs to employ the mechanism of a state? Or are you just sad your political philosiphy does exactly the oppisite of what it was supposed to?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    So you don't agree with Marxism because it needs to employ the mechanism of a state? Or are you just sad your political philosiphy does exactly the oppisite of what it was supposed to?
    I'm not a Marxist, but that is a long and complicated story that I can't be bothered to relate... And I think you must have misread my post - Marxism is anti-State at its most pure and I have always argued that on this site.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    I'm not a Marxist, but that is a long and complicated story that I can't be bothered to relate... And I think you must have misread my post - Marxism is anti-State at its most pure and I have always argued that on this site.
    So what do you beilive?

    I just ask because I don't understand.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    What I essentially believe is that Marxism at its core is opposed to the Nation State, on the grounds that the Nation State was founded by and for the Bourgeoisie. The best examples of this are the founding of Revolutionary France and America.
    Last edited by CountArach; 11-10-2009 at 04:05.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    What I essentially believe is that Marxism at its core is opposed to the Nation State, on the grounds that the Nation State was founded by and for the Bourgeoisie. The best examples of this are the founding of Revolutionary France and America. ...
    Ah, fair enough.
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 11-10-2009 at 04:06.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    An evil bureacracy, to be precise, but that's a bit redundant.
    yeah but which sounds better, i mean luke skywalker didnt destroy the Evil Bureaucracy did he/

    (yes i am attempting to turnt his thread into a converstaion comparing the soviets to the Evil Empire in star Wars.)

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    How many times do I have to repudiate the idea that Marxism is Statist before people will finally accept that it is not?
    It isn't going to become factual regardless of how many times you repeat it. Then again, if you want to argue semantics, Marxism isn't statist but is certainly authoritarian.
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 11-10-2009 at 04:15.

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    It isn't going to become factual regardless of how many times you repeat it.
    Show me at which point Marx talks about the necessity of a state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Then again, if you want to argue semantics, Marxism isn't statist but is certainly authoritarian.
    How can it be Authoritarian without being statist EMFM?
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    Show me at which point Marx talks about the necessity of a state.

    How can it be Authoritarian without being statist EMFM?
    I would argue without a state the strong dominate the weak and communism therefore becomes impossible.

    A vaccum will always be filled with depravity.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I would argue without a state the strong dominate the weak and communism therefore becomes impossible. .
    With a State the strong dominate the weak anyway, so that would be no different. However, replacing a State with actual Democracy (Meant in the truest direct democracy sense of the word) would allow for this to be rectified to an extent as the local collective can deal with things more effectively.

    Anyway, as I said I'm not a Marxist, I just feel that there are parts of it well worth defending. I really do have to study now, so I'm going to go do that. I will undoubtedly return at some later point.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Is Germany happy now? You made the Soviets cry...

    Oh, and thanks Gorbi... I don't care what they say about the head thing.
    Last edited by Samurai Waki; 11-10-2009 at 05:23.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    How many times do I have to repudiate the idea that Marxism is Statist before people will finally accept that it is not?
    You can talk forever; but that won't change the facts. Show me the nation I asked for - the un-oppressive communist state. But you can't; you and other communists can only talk, denying the USSR had anything to do with communism. Lots of cheap talk because you've got no proof, no facts.

    I'm not going to disagree with you there.
    I think you will. I don't mean Stalinism, I don't mean the USSR. I mean communism, Marxism, Engelism, Socialism, whatever and whichever brand of collectivism you care to mention.

    They are all stains on the human soul. What other political system has so thoroughly crushed art? Freedom of thought, of speech?

    With a State the strong dominate the weak anyway, so that would be no different. However, replacing a State with actual Democracy (Meant in the truest direct democracy sense of the word) would allow for this to be rectified to an extent as the local collective can deal with things more effectively.
    Bah! And when a crime is committed in your democracy, who will be sent to arrest the perpetrator? A mob, or a professional chosen by the democracy? Who will investigate crimes? Who will run the transportation systems, the water lines, hand out welfare?

    And if a person decides they and others want to work as capitalists outside of your collectivist ownership, what will you do to them? Will you prevent people from working if they don't own the factory? Will you send those who do own factories or build them by themselves to jail?

    Have you ever thought that others might not want to be forced into your vision of 'freedom'?

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    You can talk forever; but that won't change the facts. Show me the nation I asked for - the un-oppressive communist state.
    Do I really have to point out just how stupid this sentence is?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    But you can't; you and other communists can only talk, denying the USSR had anything to do with communism. Lots of cheap talk because you've got no proof, no facts.
    I re-iterate. I'm not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    What other political system has so thoroughly crushed art?
    So I take it you support the NEA unquestioningly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Freedom of thought, of speech?
    I can't think of a single one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Bah! And when a crime is committed in your democracy, who will be sent to arrest the perpetrator? A mob, or a professional chosen by the democracy? Who will investigate crimes? Who will run the transportation systems, the water lines, hand out welfare?
    I don't have the answer to this. I support the existence of a State as a necessary evil until an answer to this can be found.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    And if a person decides they and others want to work as capitalists outside of your collectivist ownership, what will you do to them? Will you prevent people from working if they don't own the factory? Will you send those who do own factories or build them by themselves to jail?
    What do we do with those who want to live outside of Capitalism now?

    EDIT: I just can't be any more... I'm leaving until people can at least identify the most basic terms of political ideology.
    Last edited by CountArach; 11-10-2009 at 07:28.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  19. #19

    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    It seems like a stretch to say that the USSR wasn't communist. They certainly had their own brand of communism, and I don't know that anyone can claim any particular philosophy as "true communism".

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    Member Member jabarto's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    They are all stains on the human soul. What other political system has so thoroughly crushed art?
    Liberal socialism has brought success and prosperity to millions and millions of people. I wouldn't call that a blight on the soul.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Huh, not a single answer from CA. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

    Do I really have to point out just how stupid this sentence is?
    You've never heard of nation and state being synonyms?

    I re-iterate. I'm not.
    Whatever. Collectivist then?

    I can't think of a single one.


    Oh, man, that was good. A classic fallacy, and so poorly played. The USSR destroys all art and throws artists into gulags; one Senator holds some hearings before being brought down by a reporter and the army is supposed to erase that!


    What do we do with those who want to live outside of Capitalism now?
    Here, we let them live as they will. You dodged the question though; I doubt capitalists in your society would enjoy such generosity.

    EDIT: I just can't be any more... I'm leaving until people can at least identify the most basic terms of political ideology.

    Gee, it's because of that and not because you've been unable to provide an answer to any of my criticisms of communism?


    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post

    Gee, it's because of that and not because you've been unable to provide an answer to any of my criticisms of communism?


    CR
    It's because I'm not a Communist, I have never claimed to be one, and I will never be one. I'm blocking myself from the Backroom for a while because I'm so sick of people getting away with completely misusing the names of ideologies to tar their political opponents and not getting called on it. THAT is the reason I've defended Marxism in this thread; not because I believe in it, but because calling your opponent a Communist is the closest thing to an acceptable ad hominem attack without resorting to Godwin's Law, something I also loathe.

    So yeah, I won't be back for a little while.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Bah! And when a crime is committed in your democracy, who will be sent to arrest the perpetrator? A mob, or a professional chosen by the democracy? Who will investigate crimes? Who will run the transportation systems, the water lines, hand out welfare?
    Aren't you usually the guy who is in favour of replacing the oh so oppressive police with mobs of guys with guns who can defend themselves?
    Aren't sheriffs in the US professionals chosen by the democracy? Or are they just random nothingainer joycampsitters chosen by a democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave View Post
    quote of inappropriate post deleted
    Well Dave, I can't really decide what to be most thankful for, the lend-lease program, the Potsdam treaty or the invasion of Normandy...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    This thread is how Germany, in the eyes of Americans, went from supportable trade partner to devilish barbarians to supportable beacon of capitalism to commie paradise of socialised healthcare and leftist euronannies in less than 100 years, right?
    Last edited by Ser Clegane; 11-10-2009 at 16:56. Reason: quote of deleted post


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    And stay dead

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    I think there's a difference between the likes of the revolutionaries and idealists, such as Marx, Engel and many revolutionaries in their early stages, and the later "Communists" who maintained such a horiffic and malevolent regime. Certainly, the goal of Communism is a noble one (Only a Fascist would disagree that the basic idea of Communism can be appreciated, even if it's recognised to be impossible.), and I would say that the majority of Communist revolutionaries had noble goals, even if they didn't try to achieve them with noble methods. However, once it was realised Communism did not provide the fruits it promised, that's when things started to go wrong, especially when Stalin comes into the picture. It would be fair to say that Communism as an idea is not evil, but it is always corrupted by self interest and paranoia.

    However, maybe Communism was a nessecary evil. It's doubtful that Russia could have had the industrial might to resist Fascism in WWII had all the land from the Vistula to Kamchatka bowed it's head to the Tsar.

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunsulus's article
    Survivors of the East German dictatorship have recently testified that the greatest victory of the regime was to have created an atmosphere in which citizens engaged in self-censorship – avoided uttering even some sentiments that might not have concerned the authorities. Look at 21st-century Britons, tongue-tied in conversation, groping for some PC euphemism (“If I’m allowed to say that…”) in what was once the most iconically free-spoken country on earth. Who needs a Stasi with people censoring themselves?
    It's become politically correct to attack political correctness. The easiest way is to exaggerate a target, then attack the self-made strawman with all vigour. Speech was never free in the way that it's portrayed to be. Find the most conservative, most old-school Tories who were brought up way before PC was supposed to have been invented, and you'd find that even they self-censor their speech, depending on whom they're talking to. Except they weren't taught that as political correctness, they were taught it as manners, respecting whom one is talking to for the sake of a cordial society. The main difference would probably be Thatcher's dissolution of society, so people no longer respect the ties that bind society together, and no longer have the self-discipline to temper their actions so they can get what they want without having to stir trouble. Instead, the default is to be outrageous, and ask "I want to do this - what can't I?". They want absolute freedom to do whatever the hell they want, without regard for other people, and the only thing stopping is rules, and enforcement of them.

    Go talk to little old ladies. While they may have views which one may see as outdated, they will almost always show regard for the listener. When asked why they do so, they'll answer that it's polite to do so, and to be deliberately oppositional (not put that way of course) is rude. An attitude that post-Thatcher UK has dumped in favour of ego uber alles.

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Communism is both an ideology and a (as of yet) purely hypothetical model of society where there's no state hiearchy, just collective ownership at the local level.
    In Marxist-Leninism the socialist state is just a transitional form between a capitalist state and the absence of a state, a communist society. There's a reason why it's called the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics. In theory, the communist party wich ran the whole thing would just give up all its power and let the state wither away

    Also this fad of comparing the EU with the USSR is really quite pathetic. Especially when it comes from the same people who (rightfully) complain when Polish nationalists are compared to nazis.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    for those of you that appreciate the irony of this momentous event:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ge...-as-democrats/

    Funeral in Berlin – of freedom, buried by EUSSR commissars posing as democrats

    By Gerald Warner Politics Last updated: November 9th, 2009

    As farces go, it has Brian Rix beaten to a cocked hat. The spectacle of the leaders of the EUSSR marching solemnly through Berlin to celebrate the “fall” of communism and the restoration of freedom, just a few days after completing their plan for a new Soviet-style empire based on Brussels is one that will be relished by connoisseurs of irony. It will not be appreciated by anybody else.

    Twenty years ago Angela Merkel, then a scientist, walked into the West out of the debris of the Marxist slum set up by the Soviet Union as a client state in 1945. She was looking for freedom. She found it, then joined with the rest of the EU nomenklatura in destroying it. After the EU constitution was democratically rejected in referenda by the electorates of France and the Netherlands, it was during Germany’s tenure of the EU Presidency in 2007 that the “period of reflection” was formally ended and the Berlin Declaration resurrected the project under the thin disguise of a “treaty”.

    Marching with Merkel were Nicolas Sarkozy, whose government has adhered to the Lisbon Treaty after its repudiation by the French electorate; Gordon Brown, who refused to allow Britain any say at all; and Mikhail Gorbachev, creator of the comedy twins Glasnost and Perestroika, in a vain attempt as First Secretary of the freedom-loving Communist Party of the Soviet Union to shore up his collapsing empire – now hailed as an icon of “democracy”.

    He is that, all right, since “democracy” has displaced freedom. It was obvious to all egalitarians, bureaucrats, social engineers, Frankfurt School Marxists and rag-tag big-government socialists of all flavours that the sclerotic Soviet Union was no longer fit for purpose. So it has moved westwards, is now headquartered in Brussels, is sharp-suited and technocratic. But it has also accomplished two much more important transformations.

    The first is to have uncoupled Marxism from Leninism. The abject failure of the nationalisation of the means of production, distribution and exchange, of collectivisation and all the other delusions of the economically illiterate Marx and his followers resulted in the collapse of the Soviet Empire. The control freaks are determined not to make that mistake again. Instead, replace the command economy with the “social market” economy: let business create wealth, then bleed it off remorselessly into the coffers of the state.

    Marxism, as an economic theory, is dead. But Leninism, which was always more concerned with social control, is very much alive. Through the refinements of Frankfurt School Marxism – also more concerned with society and culture than economics – Political Correctness has been enthroned. That is the EUSSR’s second great achievement.

    Survivors of the East German dictatorship have recently testified that the greatest victory of the regime was to have created an atmosphere in which citizens engaged in self-censorship – avoided uttering even some sentiments that might not have concerned the authorities. Look at 21st-century Britons, tongue-tied in conversation, groping for some PC euphemism (“If I’m allowed to say that…”) in what was once the most iconically free-spoken country on earth. Who needs a Stasi with people censoring themselves?

    We should tell our hypocritical leaders, going through the charade of celebrating “freedom” in Berlin, the unvarnished truth. You are not the heirs of John F Kennedy, of Ronald Reagan, of Margaret Thatcher – still less of the brave individuals who lost their lives trying to escape from behind the Iron Curtain into the Free World that you have dismantled.

    You are the heirs of Ulbricht, Honecker and every other despised puppet leader that built and maintained the Great Anti-Fascist Protection Barrier – the weasel euphemism for the Berlin Wall that prefigured the Newspeak you are imposing on EU citizens. One day, sooner or later, you will go the same way as your infamous predecessors, into the dustbin of history.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 11-10-2009 at 12:42.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  29. #29
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    I'm a bit puzzled by this commemoration. A bunch of people who never had to live in a communist regime or weren't even born by them all go "OMG awesome, freedom won 20 years ago, let's celebrate !"

    What a bunch of crap.

    May I remind you that after novembre 9th 1989, we've been told repeatedly by thinkers, writers, politicians, leaders and what not that we were on the eve of a new world. A peaceful, democratic, and fair world.
    People who dared to disagree with this point of view were dismissed, and called pessimist of communist-apologists.

    Now, what do we see? There are just as many dictatorships nowadays than there used to be in 1989, and some of them are indeed bloodier than the communist dictatorship. The US' power goes unchecked, leading to the futile war in Irak. Communism has been replaced by various other ideologies, most of which are much more subtle and threatening. Capitalism goes rampant and doesn't play by the rules anymore, leading to a growing disparity of income between the higher classes and the rest of the population.
    And many people from Eastern Europe think life was better back then because at least, they had a job and a dignity.

    Liberty and freedom my ass.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: United Germany & The Beginning of the End for the Socialist System in Eastern Eur

    Quote Originally Posted by Meneldil View Post
    And many people from Eastern Europe think life was better back then because at least, they had a job and a dignity.

    Liberty and freedom my ass.
    The problem would of course have been that the old system was not sustainable. IIRC, the GDR was already getting into severe financial problems.

    I agree with you that it would be good if everybody would have a job that would allow them to take care of themselves and their family - unfortunately, a system in which this works properly still seems to be a utopia.
    Should not mean however, that because one thing failed, the complete opposite is the way to go...

    As for the reason to celebrate - I was born (and lived until I was 26) in a city very close to the border to the GDR. I have been on on a school trip to the GDR in 1986, and I can tell you that it was a very surreal experience.

    After the border opened in 1989, thousands of people came over from the other side of the border to enjoy to celebrate and visit their "neighbors". These people were genuinely happy - not because of promises that came from politicians - we did not reach that stage at that time yet - they were indeed simply happy to be free to get into their car and just drive beyond the border.

    It is hard to describe the weeks directly after the border opened with people from both sides going back and forth - but I wouldn't want to have missed it - and it is a good time to remember after 20 years.

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