Battle AI Blog

**antisocialmunky** · 11-20-2009, 06:10

Yeah, the indecisiveness of the AI is the msot annoying thing. Its a weird edge condition between two states that the AI alternates between or a anti-missile behavior. It first popped up in RTW(custom battle archer vs archer) and plagued every unit in MIITW. Now its still present in ETW...

**HopAlongBunny** · 11-21-2009, 17:41

Originally Posted by Wishazu

Shogun Total War for the win

I actually lose battles from time to time

This is all that needs to be said. The AI in STW/MTW/VI was capable of winning a battle from time to time. It made you pay for not paying attention.

Is that too much to ask for from a battle simulation?

**antisocialmunky** · 11-21-2009, 19:20

I also think that each battle in thsoe games mattered more. You win a battle, there are consequences. In RTW++, you wade through hordes of units all the time. I actually finished STW campaigns... lol.

**AggonyDuck** · 11-22-2009, 02:20

The problem is that while the AI keeps improving the complexity of the battles is increasing exponentially, making it harder and harder for the AI to be competitive. Missile-based combat has always been a weakness for the AI and it hasn't really been improved much since Shogun. That's why the decision to move into the gunpowder age was a pretty risky gambit as they had to more or less start from scratch. At the moment the battles are so complex that the AI is in a perpetual state of confusion. It seems like it just has too many options to choose from and thus fails to select the proper response (if it selects any at all).

I must admit I'd hope that they'd go back to their roots and understand the elegance of simplistic design. What made Shogun and MTW have such a relatively challenging AI was the simplicity of the engine and unit selections. The more complex the series has become the more the AI has struggled to adapt. It would truly be interesting to see what a modern day AI might pull off on modernized Shogun with a Risk-style campaign map and relatively few simple unit types.

**gollum** · 11-22-2009, 14:55

Originally posted by AggonyDuck(y?)
The problem is that while the AI keeps improving the complexity of the battles is increasing exponentially, making it harder and harder for the AI to be competitive. Missile-based combat has always been a weakness for the AI and it hasn't really been improved much since Shogun. That's why the decision to move into the gunpowder age was a pretty risky gambit as they had to more or less start from scratch. At the moment the battles are so complex that the AI is in a perpetual state of confusion. It seems like it just has too many options to choose from and thus fails to select the proper response (if it selects any at all).

I must admit I'd hope that they'd go back to their roots and understand the elegance of simplistic design. What made Shogun and MTW have such a relatively challenging AI was the simplicity of the engine and unit selections. The more complex the series has become the more the AI has struggled to adapt. It would truly be interesting to see what a modern day AI might pull off on modernized Shogun with a Risk-style campaign map and relatively few simple unit types.

Agreed with every word. They wont do it though because it makes them lots and lots of money. Its the complexity and graphics that sell not strategic depth and challenge. They had aimed for this and succeded with RTW and there is no turning back. TW will remain flashy and mediocre until its concept has been milked to the point that there is no more interest in it.

**antisocialmunky** · 11-22-2009, 15:47

Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

The problem is that while the AI keeps improving the complexity of the battles is increasing exponentially, making it harder and harder for the AI to be competitive. Missile-based combat has always been a weakness for the AI and it hasn't really been improved much since Shogun. That's why the decision to move into the gunpowder age was a pretty risky gambit as they had to more or less start from scratch. At the moment the battles are so complex that the AI is in a perpetual state of confusion. It seems like it just has too many options to choose from and thus fails to select the proper response (if it selects any at all).

I must admit I'd hope that they'd go back to their roots and understand the elegance of simplistic design. What made Shogun and MTW have such a relatively challenging AI was the simplicity of the engine and unit selections. The more complex the series has become the more the AI has struggled to adapt. It would truly be interesting to see what a modern day AI might pull off on modernized Shogun with a Risk-style campaign map and relatively few simple unit types.

Yes it is crap with gunpowder weapons. But it doesn't mean it should also be crap at drawing a line of dudes, marching them into range, decide to shoot or charge...

**Zild** · 11-23-2009, 20:09

Originally Posted by gollum

Agreed with every word. They wont do it though because it makes them lots and lots of money. Its the complexity and graphics that sell not strategic depth and challenge. They had aimed for this and succeded with RTW and there is no turning back. TW will remain flashy and mediocre until its concept has been milked to the point that there is no more interest in it.

My sentiments exactly, Gollum and AggonyDuck before you.

CA chooses more features over better AI because it looks better on the marketing. Much better to say you can garrison buildings and fight naval battles than to say you can do the same as (or less than) the previous game but that the AI will put up a reasonable fight...

Going back to the original post, a single developer is insufficient for BAI of this complexity. The way I see it CA has three viable choices:

Take on more BAI developers.
Switch from AI to scripting (for CAI especially I think this might even be appropriate).
Make the situation less complex for the BAI.

But it seems they choose option 4 - promise better AI in the next game or expansion.

**Alexander the Pretty Good** · 11-24-2009, 09:07

Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

It would truly be interesting to see what a modern day AI might pull off on modernized Shogun with a Risk-style campaign map and relatively few simple unit types.

And they could still go crazy with the graphics to attract the people who are dis- hey shiny!