Historical basis for STW etc (split from the Shogun II Thread)

[Karl08]

Good post Karl08. To which swords you refer to?

Thank you. I am referring to pretty much all the swords in the background art (good example: the one in the message you get when your security forces have caught and killed an enemy ninja). Sorry if I get a bit technical, but the profile taper is wrong, and there is no yokote in the kissaki (the line which is horizontal in this picture). To be fair, you don't always see a yokote in traditional scrolls or woodblocks, but you often do when you see swords up close (such as this one). Or you see something like this, where at least you see where the yokote is supposed to be. The yokote basically separates the curve of the sword itself and the curve of the tip.

Anyway, Japanese artists tend to be sticklers for detail, and though there may be an exaggeration of features (take Japanese erotic art, for example), I have yet to see them get the basic shapes wrong.

Oh, and the unit profile pic of the mounted archer is wearing two katana on his right side, and the yumi he uses is not the characteristic asymmetrical Japanese longbow. I don't actually know to what extent symmetrical bows were used, but I have not been able to spot a single asymmetrical one in STW.

These are by no means serious flaws, but I would be even more pleased with the game if they could get such details right.

[Karl08]

Odd, I "may not edit my posts". Hm. Anyway, just thought I'd add that the only "big" changes I'd like to see to STW would be improved sieges: as it is now we have four walls and an open gate, and that's not terribly exciting. The other thing is what I loved about MTW when I first played it, which I felt balanced things out rather nicely: different troop sizes for different troop types. It also makes sense that horses be in shorter supply than peasants.

And I agree: the geographical scale like that of Japan in STW is the optimal size for a TW-style game. It is absolutely unrealistic that every faction should be hell bent on conquering the whole map if the map is the size of Europe or thereabouts. Of course, I didn't mind in my MTW campaign when the Turks ended up controlling Northern Europe, Spain held Wallachia and nearby regions, France extended to Austria below the Turks, and the Byzantines were holed up in Portugal. Not the least bit realistic, but lots of fun.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Karl08
Thank you.

Your're welcome.

I am referring to pretty much all the swords in the background art (good example: the one in the message you get when your security forces have caught and killed an enemy ninja). Sorry if I get a bit technical, but the profile taper is wrong, and there is no yokote in the kissaki (the line which is horizontal in this picture). To be fair, you don't always see a yokote in traditional scrolls or woodblocks, but you often do when you see swords up close (such as this one). Or you see something like this, where at least you see where the yokote is supposed to be. The yokote basically separates the curve of the sword itself and the curve of the tip.

Right, dont be scared to get too technical; its always interesting.

Anyway, Japanese artists tend to be sticklers for detail, and though there may be an exaggeration of features (take Japanese erotic art, for example), I have yet to see them get the basic shapes wrong.

They are indeed - the exaggeration of features in the erotic prints (for example the genitals) is to underline the fact that they become the emotional, physiological and psychological centre of the person(s) during sex.

Oh, and the unit profile pic of the mounted archer is wearing two katana on his right side, and the yumi he uses is not the characteristic asymmetrical Japanese longbow. I don't actually know to what extent symmetrical bows were used, but I have not been able to spot a single asymmetrical one in STW.

Indeed - its too much to ask i think from the unit sprites although it could be certainly portrayed in the unit cards as you say.

PS I think the horter sword is called wakizashi - the longer is the familiar katana.

Generally speaking Shogun is quite respectful of the period - Stephen Turnbull - the British scholar expert on Sengoku Jidai was hired by CA as historical advisor. I think that the game was even praised for that from Japanese reviewers which is indicative of its quality in the area. Its as you say though not perfect.

Odd, I "may not edit my posts". Hm.

Don't worry about this, its temporary; all members start out as "Junior" in order to help the moderators filter out spammers, trolls etc After a while (which can take a few days or a few weeks at the most) of participation, a moderator will grant you "Member" status that allows you to edit your posts and unlocks certain forums to you.

Anyway, just thought I'd add that the only "big" changes I'd like to see to STW would be improved sieges: as it is now we have four walls and an open gate, and that's not terribly exciting.

I agree with you but i personally like them as simple as they are.

The other thing is what I loved about MTW when I first played it, which I felt balanced things out rather nicely: different troop sizes for different troop types. It also makes sense that horses be in shorter supply than peasants.

Well yes MTW is balanced within reason, but Shogun is better in that department imho.

And I agree: the geographical scale like that of Japan in STW is the optimal size for a TW-style game. It is absolutely unrealistic that every faction should be hell bent on conquering the whole map if the map is the size of Europe or thereabouts.

Of course, I didn't mind in my MTW campaign when the Turks ended up controlling Northern Europe, Spain held Wallachia and nearby regions, France extended to Austria below the Turks, and the Byzantines were holed up in Portugal. Not the least bit realistic, but lots of fun.

No doubt yes, but this gives rise to the ahistoric faction reapperances that personally bug me; the Egyptians reappearing in Scotland etc. They should have coded factions reappearing only in regions that have the same base religion imho. In Shogun where the feature originated from, any region was just as good.

[Karl08]

Indeed - its too much to ask i think from the unit sprites although it could be certainly portrayed in the unit cards as you say.

PS I think the horter sword is called wakizashi - the longer is the familiar katana.

Indeed, though katana simply means "sword". On the unit card of the samurai archer, however, he is wearing two long rather than long/short - and neither is in tachi mount.

Generally speaking Shogun is quite respectful of the period - Stephen Turnbull - the British scholar expert on Sengoku Jidai was hired by CA as historical advisor. I think that the game was even praised for that from Japanese reviewers which is indicative of its quality in the area. Its as you say though not perfect.

Wow, I didn't realize they had consulted Turnbull. But that might explain why we do indeed see a realistic division of weapons on the battlefield: mainly spears and bows, with the katana being a secondary weapon.

Don't worry about this, its temporary; all members start out as "Junior" in order to help the moderators filter out spammers, trolls etc After a while (which can take a few days or a few weeks at the most) of participation, a moderator will grant you "Member" status that allows you to edit your posts and unlocks certain forums to you.

Hmmm I registered in 2008. Though granted, after 7 posts I somehow forgot I had an account here. I only remembered it today when I once more brushed the dust off my Mori savegame.

I agree with you but i personally like them as simple as they are.

Oh, I'm not asking much. Just an actual keep in there, so it doesn't look like a hastily erected palisade. Which could, perhaps, aid the defenders with a few sympathy arrows.

Well yes MTW is balanced within reason, but Shogun is better in that department imho.

Personally I find that having every unit type at 60 makes everything look a bit too uniform, and I don't really like cavalry in such great numbers anyway. Cavalry units equal in size to infantry units were not common in Europe (except, perhaps, when heavy cavalry was all the rage), and even less so in Japan. Takeda Shingen was the first to use massed cavalry, not because nobody ever thought of it before, but because the cost of a large cavalry force quickly becomes prohibitive. And it somehow doesn't look right to me on the battlefield, either.

No doubt yes, but this gives rise to the ahistoric faction reapperances that personally bug me; the Egyptians reappearing in Scotland etc. They should have coded factions reappearing only in regions that have the same base religion imho. In Shogun where the feature originated from, any region was just as good.

Defeated clans could reappear in Shogun? Wow, I had no idea.

[caravel]

Don't worry about this, its temporary; all members start out as "Junior" in order to help the moderators filter out spammers, trolls etc After a while (which can take a few days or a few weeks at the most) of participation, a moderator will grant you "Member" status that allows you to edit your posts and unlocks certain forums to you.

Hmmm I registered in 2008. Though granted, after 7 posts I somehow forgot I had an account here. I only remembered it today when I once more brushed the dust off my Mori savegame.

Hello Karl08,

I will put in a request for your account to be upgraded now.

[Karl08]

Hello Karl08,

I will put in a request for your account to be upgraded now.

Arigato gozaimasu