Historical basis for STW etc (split from the Shogun II Thread)

[gollum]

Originally posted by Asai Nagamasa
... but as I understand it most clans did not field vast numbers of Sohei? Also Nodachi were not nearly as common as say Yari Ashigaru/Samurai?

Afaik, you are right about the Nodachi - however from what i have read (in the aformentioned book and in a few other ones including "The twelve men who made Japan" by Economics Prof. Sakaiya Taichi) it would seem the W.Monks were pretty numerous and common; they were particularly so in central Japan (that comprises the "Oda" area as well as Etchizen and Kaga) since their monasteries were in and around the centre of old powers that is the old capital of Nara (in Yamato during the Heien period) and later Kyoto.

They were particularly interested in resisting any potential unifier since they were essentially an independent power sect that yielded huge political, economical and military force at the time - not to mention their influence with the populace. As such they were naturally in a position of strength with a weak central authority.

When Oda Nobunaga took over Mino, Omi and Yanashiro, he tried to boost the economy by the equivalent of deregulation. This meant abolishing the various taxes that the imperial court, nobles and the buddhist monasteries were retrieving from merchandise and goods traveling through their lands. In this way he could buy goods cheaply at their production area and sell them at a high price where there was demand - the profits could afford him the professional ashigaru army he wanted. He even established the town of Gifu in Omi, strategically situated in the approaches to the capital and he personally invited merchants to settle in, while he gave various bonuses and allowances to encourage such moves. By the way the town still stands.

It was this move that brought Nobunaga in direct confrontation against the W.Monks and eventually forced him to massacre them and brake their power. It was clear to both sides that there was not enough space for both and one or the other would have to recede.

Apart from being an army in their own right (with their own units of missiles, melee and cavalry and even gunners), W.Monks often served as mercenaries in clan armies that supported their interests; this is what the discount bonus for the Mori clan is meant to represent - the Mori stood against Nobunaga's armies and W.Monks flooded their armies against him. The gossip was, that many ronins from defeated clans also became warrior monks in the period; it has been speculated that some may have had old scores to settle with the prospective unifier.

The other Sengoku Jidai Warlords were for the most part depended upon local land retainers/rulers and their underlings that were providing their own arms and armor and had to feed themselves and their compatriots while on campaign. This, generally disallowed them to fight when it was harvest time - typically all sides involved in a fight would abandon it in September and return to their villages for the harvest - otherwise they risked far more than losing a battle for their overlord.

Nobunaga, wanted an army that could fight any time - continuously if possible - his campaigns in Mino are indicative: he invaded unsuccesfully a number of times; he was repulsed everytime the retainers/farmers were in the field of battle, however he was winning when they withdrew to tend to their farms leaving tiny garissons to defend border forts. This allowed Nobunaga's troops to have odds as 2000:200 or even 2000:100 in sieges and so were victorious. However next spring the farmer/soldiers would come again to kick his professional ashigaru armies out and this happened quite a few times before Nobunaga finally took Mino as his own.

In SP gameplay terms both units are resource heavy to produce in terms of buildings required, and also the fact that "swords" are relatively vulnerable to cavalry (particularly the no-dachi), cost/effectiveness ratio and low build requirements make Yari Samurai perhaps the most useful/worthy and hence backbone unit in the game, as it should be.

Its true of course that a steamrolling player can produce whatever he wants after a point, particularly if he plays with the MI/WE that halves the building costs and build times, making easy to have multiple Temples and Sword Dojos - but in 1.12 things are far tighter and even more so in the early-mid game.

Originally posted by Sasaki Kojiro
Yes. The best troops by far in shogun were yari sam, samurai archers, naginata cavalry, and monks. The other were superflous really. I think it's mainly an AI problem though:

yari cav: the AI rarely brings cavalry
no-dachi: you are rarely short of money because the AI doesn't push you, so easier to go with monks
heavy cav: AI rarely has monks
cav archer: AI rarely has monks or no-dachi, and has trouble using it's archers effectively
naginata: sometimes good for a bridge assault, but the AI can be exploited by other means. Armored yari sam can substitute
ninja and kensai: just for fun units
guns: very powerful actually but I almost never end up getting them because they make it too easy.

They are superfluous with MI that altered stats, lowered building prices and building times and made guns thrice more powerful almost. They were far better as they were intended in the original release.