Tommy Doesn't Know What Day It Is

[Beskar]

Most of what Louis says at first glance seems right from my own studies of WWI. Will need to read all the thread to see where the main disagreement is though.

Edit: There is a disagreement fault. I see it now, Germany isn't sole blame for World War 1 at all. I also remember the communications between the Tsar and the Kaiser to try to end the war last second and the generals basically turned around and said it was too late.

WWII was Germany's fault though, even though it could be argued that the 2nd war is a continuation of the first in many respects.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Edit: There is a disagreement fault. I see it now, Germany isn't sole blame for World War 1 at all. I also remember the communications between the Tsar and the Kaiser to try to end the war last second and the generals basically turned around and said it was too late.

Well, I was not really discussing the origins of WWI, but rather those of WWII.

As to the origin of WWI. The direct origins of WWI are so complex that they do not really arouse much passion or public sentiment. More for the lovers of high diplomacy. I would say Germany is most directly responsible. With the caveat that all belligerents take a large share of the responsibility - so much so that 'blaming' Germany as the most directly responsible loses much political significance and all moral meaning.

For a more ulterior context of the origins of WWI, Blackadder said it best: 'The British [and French] empire stretches across a third of the globe. Meanwhile, the German empire consists of a single sausage factory in Tanganyika'.
No moral highground for the Imperialist powers there.

Let's not just focus on the generals and governments. Public sentiment craved for war, jingoism and revanchism was rampant. Nationalism was at its peak. Art and literature glorified war, artists rushed to the trenches (see: Hitler). Industry embraced the thought of war. Freudians sexualized war as a pseudo-homosexual orgy, of young men embracing each other in physical struggle. War was aestethically appreciated, politically thought of as a fresh wind. To die for the fatherland was the highest a man could achieve in life. Even the nominally internationalist socialists fell for the trap.
Gah! It shouldn't have happened. It was so needless and fruitless!

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Edit: There is a disagreement fault. I see it now, Germany isn't sole blame for World War 1 at all. I also remember the communications between the Tsar and the Kaiser to try to end the war last second and the generals basically turned around and said it was too late.

Yes, but it is his other assertions about the Treaty which I disagree with, which I believe Husar and myself provided an argument against using direct quotes from the Treaty itself.

[Fragony]

Origins of WW1 are complex indeed, I would rather lay the blame on the Russians because of their support of Balkan nationalism, they have had an eye on that searoutes the Ottomans were holding for quite some time, and correspondence between Serbian and Russian leaders indicate that WW1 was deliberately started.

[A Very Super Market]

While the blame for starting our WWI could probably be determined at some point, the groundwork was there for some time. Europe was a ticking time bomb, for no reason but old-fashioned diplomacy and delusions by all sides. In this regard we cannot tie the blame on any one faction, they all took part of the and ended up in an even bigger one.

[Pannonian]

Origins of WW1 are complex indeed, I would rather lay the blame on the Russians because of their support of Balkan nationalism, they have had an eye on that searoutes the Ottomans were holding for quite some time, and correspondence between Serbian and Russian leaders indicate that WW1 was deliberately started.

In order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. That way there could never be a war.

[miotas]

In order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. That way there could never be a war.

But there was one problem with the plan. It was bollocks.

[Boohugh]

So the poor old ostrich died for nothing

[Fragony]

That way there could never be a war.

I don't think it was an accident, there has been extensive correspondence between Serbia and Russia mentioning the need for an incident in the Balkans since 1890, and the evidence that the Serbian government was actually behind the kill is kinda hard to refute. I think Russia used Serb nationalism as a crowbar to wreck the Austra-Hungarian monarchy, and yes provoke war. Problem with this, Russia wasn't ready for was their railroads were underdeveloped, but we are dealing with radicals and Paschtich is known to have said to the Russian ambassador that it was already too late.

[Subotan]

. Problem with this, Russia wasn't ready for was their railroads were underdeveloped,

Your post is pretty accurate, except for this. The Russians mobilized much faster than anyone thought possible.

[Fragony]

Your post is pretty accurate, except for this. The Russians mobilized much faster than anyone thought possible.

My bad. Anyhow when you think of it the whole guilt thing is based on the existance of plans, but that is what generals are payed for, making plans. That is no evidence, of course generals make plans. We will probably never know what really happened but it certainly isn't just Germany going nuts.

[Sarmatian]

I don't think it was an accident, there has been extensive correspondence between Serbia and Russia mentioning the need for an incident in the Balkans since 1890, and the evidence that the Serbian government was actually behind the kill is kinda hard to refute.

Excuse me but WTF? Pasic (Serbian latin - Pašić, no need to germanize his name) was very much opposed to the Black Hand and Colonel Apis. That was a separate military clique that tried to wrestle control from the politicians. Apis owed his position to his involvement in the coup of 1903. In fact, that same government with Pasic at its head, with the agreement from the king, had Apis shot in 1917.

Furthermore, Austria didn't have a clue about what happened and initially they blamed Narodna Odbrana (National Defense, another nationalistic organization) for the crime. The government in Vienna pushed for the war before the investigation was over, not to mention the trial. After the ultimatum was sent, Austrian ambassador in Belgrade was instructed to interpret any answer as a no, just in case that Belgrade does accept it.

Lastly, Radical Party didn't have much in common with modern day nationalistic Radical Party. Their program involved some pretty liberal ideas (liberal for the 19th-20th century Balkan anyway). Serbia wasn't ready for the war and didn't want war in 1914, even with Russian backing.

[Fragony]

True Austria-Hungary wanted war all along, but I find it kinda hard to believe that they didn't know because Pašić had send out a warning. Pašić was no black hand but he was a fierce believer in a Greater Serbia and his correspondence with Russia doesn't exactly speak in his favor. I think it all just happened too early, but it had to happen.

edit, and I know this is revisionism don't hurt me