Tommy Doesn't Know What Day It Is

**Pannonian** · 11-13-2009, 11:22

Originally Posted by Fragony

Origins of WW1 are complex indeed, I would rather lay the blame on the Russians because of their support of Balkan nationalism, they have had an eye on that searoutes the Ottomans were holding for quite some time, and correspondence between Serbian and Russian leaders indicate that WW1 was deliberately started.

In order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. That way there could never be a war.

**miotas** · 11-13-2009, 11:32

Originally Posted by Pannonian

In order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. That way there could never be a war.

But there was one problem with the plan. It was bollocks.

**Boohugh** · 11-13-2009, 12:10

So the poor old ostrich died for nothing

**Fragony** · 11-13-2009, 12:28

Originally Posted by Pannonian

That way there could never be a war.

I don't think it was an accident, there has been extensive correspondence between Serbia and Russia mentioning the need for an incident in the Balkans since 1890, and the evidence that the Serbian government was actually behind the kill is kinda hard to refute. I think Russia used Serb nationalism as a crowbar to wreck the Austra-Hungarian monarchy, and yes provoke war. Problem with this, Russia wasn't ready for was their railroads were underdeveloped, but we are dealing with radicals and Paschtich is known to have said to the Russian ambassador that it was already too late.

**Subotan** · 11-13-2009, 19:14

Originally Posted by Fragony

. Problem with this, Russia wasn't ready for was their railroads were underdeveloped,

Your post is pretty accurate, except for this. The Russians mobilized much faster than anyone thought possible.

**Fragony** · 11-13-2009, 20:43

Originally Posted by Subotan

Your post is pretty accurate, except for this. The Russians mobilized much faster than anyone thought possible.

My bad. Anyhow when you think of it the whole guilt thing is based on the existance of plans, but that is what generals are payed for, making plans. That is no evidence, of course generals make plans. We will probably never know what really happened but it certainly isn't just Germany going nuts.

**Louis VI the Fat** · 11-13-2009, 21:58

Originally Posted by Fragony

We will probably never know what really happened but it certainly isn't just Germany going nuts.

Permission to ask a question, sir...

The thing is: The way I see it, one day, there's a war on, right? And, ages ago, there wasn't a war on, right? So, there must have been a moment when there not being a war on went away, right? and there being a war on came along. So, what I want to know is: How did we get from the one case of affairs to the other case of affairs?

**Pannonian** · 11-13-2009, 22:31

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Permission to ask a question, sir...

The thing is: The way I see it, one day, there's a war on, right? And, ages ago, there wasn't a war on, right? So, there must have been a moment when there not being a war on went away, right? and there being a war on came along. So, what I want to know is: How did we get from the one case of affairs to the other case of affairs?

Do you mean how did the war start?

**gaelic cowboy** · 11-13-2009, 22:53

The war started because of the vile Hun and his villainous empire building.

**Sarmatian** · 11-14-2009, 00:14

Originally Posted by Fragony

I don't think it was an accident, there has been extensive correspondence between Serbia and Russia mentioning the need for an incident in the Balkans since 1890, and the evidence that the Serbian government was actually behind the kill is kinda hard to refute.

Excuse me but WTF? Pasic (Serbian latin - Pašić, no need to germanize his name) was very much opposed to the Black Hand and Colonel Apis. That was a separate military clique that tried to wrestle control from the politicians. Apis owed his position to his involvement in the coup of 1903. In fact, that same government with Pasic at its head, with the agreement from the king, had Apis shot in 1917.

Furthermore, Austria didn't have a clue about what happened and initially they blamed Narodna Odbrana (National Defense, another nationalistic organization) for the crime. The government in Vienna pushed for the war before the investigation was over, not to mention the trial. After the ultimatum was sent, Austrian ambassador in Belgrade was instructed to interpret any answer as a no, just in case that Belgrade does accept it.

Lastly, Radical Party didn't have much in common with modern day nationalistic Radical Party. Their program involved some pretty liberal ideas (liberal for the 19th-20th century Balkan anyway). Serbia wasn't ready for the war and didn't want war in 1914, even with Russian backing.

**Fragony** · 11-14-2009, 11:38

True Austria-Hungary wanted war all along, but I find it kinda hard to believe that they didn't know because Pašić had send out a warning. Pašić was no black hand but he was a fierce believer in a Greater Serbia and his correspondence with Russia doesn't exactly speak in his favor. I think it all just happened too early, but it had to happen.

edit, and I know this is revisionism don't hurt me

**Sarmatian** · 11-15-2009, 19:49

Originally Posted by Fragony

True Austria-Hungary wanted war all along, but I find it kinda hard to believe that they didn't know because Pašić had send out a warning. Pašić was no black hand but he was a fierce believer in a Greater Serbia and his correspondence with Russia doesn't exactly speak in his favor. I think it all just happened too early, but it had to happen.

edit, and I know this is revisionism don't hurt me

Well, it's hardly nationalism in a modern sense of the word. Balkans were lagging behind the rest of Europe since they were basically divided between the last two dynastic empires of Europe, Ottoman Empire and Austria-Hungary. The desire to incorporate Bosnia wasn't anything like the desire to create Greater Serbia but to do something that most of Europe had already done - to create a nation state.

Pasic did send out a warning about the possible attempt on the archduke's life, true but the warning was vague. Serbian ambassador in Vienna didn't speak about the existence of the actual plot, instead he talked about the danger for the archduke in general. That was probably because Serbian government wasn't aware about the exact details of the plot, just that there was something brewing.

The fact remains that both Russia and France didn't give up on diplomacy till the very last minute. Most of Austrian government pressed for war and similar pressures were coming from Berlin.

**Fragony** · 11-16-2009, 11:13

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Most of Austrian government pressed for war and similar pressures were coming from Berlin.

The military command did, not so sure about the Monarchs. Conrad was a hardliner who wanted war, but the war wasn't immediatly declared, instead an ultimatum, which was actually under presurre of Berlin. Schedules for war were on the tables in Berlin, but that's what generals do, german generals were known to present a plan yearly.