Disbelief of evolution on the rise...but not in the US

[jabarto]

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id...ise/?page=full

But there is another creationist movement whose influence is growing, and which is fueling challenges to science in countries where Christianity has little sway: Islamic creationism. Campaigners in countries like Turkey, Lebanon, Egypt, and Indonesia have fought the teaching of evolution in schools there, sometimes with great success. Creationist conferences have been held in Pakistan, and moderate Islamic clerics are on record publicly condemning Darwin’s ideas. A recent study of Muslim university students in the Netherlands showed that most rejected evolution. And driven in part by a mysterious Turkish publishing organization, Islamic creationism books are hot sellers at bookstores throughout the Muslim world.

It’s hard to say exactly how much support the theory of evolution enjoys in the world’s Muslim countries, but it’s definitely not very much. In one 2006 study by American political scientists, people in 34 industrial nations were asked whether they agreed or disagreed with the idea that human beings evolved from earlier life forms. Turkey, the only Muslim country in the survey, showed the lowest levels of support - barely a quarter of Turks said they agreed. By comparison, at least 80 percent of those surveyed in Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, and France agreed. (The United States ranked second lowest, after Turkey, at 40 percent.) Turkey is widely seen as the most culturally liberal Muslim nation, and on attitudes about evolution, other polling has borne this out: A recent study of religious attitudes found that only 16 percent of Indonesians, 14 percent of Pakistanis, and 8 percent of Egyptians believed in evolution.

At first I thought that the only people who didn't believe in evolution were a very small handful of Protestants in the southern USA. I thought that this was just another one of those issues for which people in Europe laugh at us. I was a fool; idiocy respects no borders.

I was going to post a lot more here, but it essentially came down to a rant; I'll post it if you want to hear it but it's really not that interesting.

[Devastatin Dave]

Evolve some balls and post it.

[jabarto]

Evolve some balls and post it.

Where the hell did that come from?

SO ANYWAY this issue is rather near and dear to my heart because it exemplifies human arrogance and narrowmindedness in a way that few other things do. Evolution is a fact; the evidence in its favor is overwhelming. There is more support for evolution than any other theory in existence. So it strikes me as hubris in the utmost when people claim that evolution wrong, as if they and they alone have found some oh so obvious fault with it. I've actually known people who don't believe in evolution - of course, one of them believed she was destined to give birth to the savior of the planet in 2012, but that's not really important - and their arguments can typically be distilled to "I didn't come from a fish/space dust/monkeys." So it really is a matter of pride more than anything. And it stands in the way of all honest scientific progress.

Of course, you can't blame this entirely on the fundies. Public education in this country is terrible when it comes to science, and most people who are knowledgeable in these matters don't have the time to give a Bio 101 lesson to everyone who asks, so it's understandable that some vainglorious fools would be ignorant of science. That doesn't make it right, though.

Also, I'm sure most people here know about it, but if you ever find yourself debating with a fundie, there's a great site called talkorigins.org that has a lot of info on evolution. Even if not, it's still good to check out once in a while to keep the mind sharp.

[Sarmatian]

I find it hard to believe that people actually argue with someone supporting creationism. It's totally and utterly pointless. They may believe gravity doesn't exist but it would still hurt if they fall from a 10th story.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Where the hell did that come from?

SO ANYWAY this issue is rather near and dear to my heart because it exemplifies human arrogance and narrowmindedness in a way that few other things do. Evolution is a fact; the evidence in its favor is overwhelming. There is more support for evolution than any other theory in existence. So it strikes me as hubris in the utmost when people claim that evolution wrong, as if they and they alone have found some oh so obvious fault with it. I've actually known people who don't believe in evolution - of course, one of them believed she was destined to give birth to the savior of the planet in 2012, but that's not really important - and their arguments can typically be distilled to "I didn't come from a fish/space dust/monkeys." So it really is a matter of pride more than anything. And it stands in the way of all honest scientific progress.

Of course, you can't blame this entirely on the fundies. Public education in this country is terrible when it comes to science, and most people who are knowledgeable in these matters don't have the time to give a Bio 101 lesson to everyone who asks, so it's understandable that some vainglorious fools would be ignorant of science. That doesn't make it right, though.

Also, I'm sure most people here know about it, but if you ever find yourself debating with a fundie, there's a great site called talkorigins.org that has a lot of info on evolution. Even if not, it's still good to check out once in a while to keep the mind sharp.

The problem is that the evidence is all scientific, not concrete, and it isn't conclusive. Also, evolution is of no apparent use to most people, so they do not feel compelled to believe it.

Add to that the antagonism many popular Scientists have towards religion currently, making it an either or, and it's not surprising the theory has become increasingly unpopular.

[Fragony]

If they want to believe that fine with me, doesn't affect me in any way. I think people who believe in the Darwin theory are usually much more intrusive and intolerant towards creationists then visa versa. Why they believe it is beyond me but why should I care. But some do, why.

[Cute Wolf]

Yeah... I once get into debate with them when they held some kind of "there is no evolution seminar"... and what can I say, they are stubborn beyond belief, as they start saying that those Homo-Blah-Blah-Blah are not humans, but deformed monkeys or they are humans that their god has cursed into monkeys.

[Louis VI the Fat]

one of them believed she was destined to give birth to the savior of the planet in 2012

Haha! Stupid fundies.

It is I who'll save the planet in 2012, not some baby.


---------

Hmmm...on second thought, it does improve your chances of getting some in 2011. I must keep an eye out. Maybe hang out more in New Age clubs by then.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Evolve some balls and post it.

Where the hell did that come from?

Don't worry, that's just Dave being charming. No offense intended, I'm sure. I think he likes you.

[Viking]

Haha! Stupid fundies.

It is I who'll save the planet in 2012, not some baby.


---------

Hmmm...on second thought, it does improve your chances of getting some in 2011. I must keep an eye out. Maybe hang out more in New Age clubs by then.

No need to wait until 2011, start faking you spirituality today.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Don't be stupid, nobody can save us from 2012.

Anyway, I'm not surprised at the findings of the OP. I remember a BBC article that said something like 1/3 of people in the UK do not believe in evolution, and obviously the number of fundamentalists here is nowhere near as high as 1/3 of the population.

I know a few non-religious people that don't believe in evolution, the idea we evolved from monkeys just seems stupid to them.

Also, I'm sure most people here know about it, but if you ever find yourself debating with a fundie, there's a great site called talkorigins.org that has a lot of info on evolution. Even if not, it's still good to check out once in a while to keep the mind sharp.

Bah! That's not real debating. I could just as easily go to a fundamentalist site and get a few facts and quasi-theories and through them around with some Dawkinesque guy doing the same. How many people having these atheist v fundamentalist (which is what they are usually about) flame wars on the magical world of the internet actually have a solid, well-rounded understanding of the theory of evolution, as opposed to just shouting some facts that prove how right they are?

[Devastatin Dave]

Don't worry, that's just Dave being charming. No offense intended, I'm sure. I think he likes you.

If someone comes in here and says a large segment of the world's population is suffering from "idiocy" but doesn't fully explain thier position, regardless of they say its a "rant" they need to have their habitat adjust in a way for their scrotum to turn into a testical holding organ. I don't believe in evolution, not because I'm a creationist, but because their are as many holes in the theory as a brothel in Amstradam. If someone wants to show off to an international forum about how "enlightened" he is compared to us knuckle dragging neanderthals that want bend to his beliefs, bring forth thy nutz and speaketh upon thine flock.

and yes, I like the new guy.

[Fisherking]

To a cretin extent Dave is right...

There are examples of micro evolution but we have no firm evidence of macro evolution.

Believing either in evolution or what ever is an act of faith.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Catholics almost universally agree that evolution sounds like a solid micro-explanation of God's creation in relation to the spiritual macro-explanation contained in the Bible. I truly don't see what the hold up is here with our proddie neighbors.

[Beskar]

Creationism is pretty dumb, unless you are going to argue like the Sumerians did, that aliens came down and had sex with female apes, and the hybrid resulted in Homospiens.

[Lemur]

Also, evolution is of no apparent use to most people, so they do not feel compelled to believe it.

Hmmm. It's the foundation of all modern biology. Do you like going to the doctor and not getting a mercury poultice or a leeching? Thank evolution. Do you like your ibuprofen or acetaminophen? Thank evolution. Sheesh, do you like having selective breeding with horses, dogs, and every grain we eat? Thank evolution.

People just get their scrotums in a twist over the idea that evoution might apply to humans. That's what gets them all worked up. Fine then. Evolution applies to bacteria, insects, fungi, plants and animals, but we are special and different.

There. Does that make you happy?

[gaelic cowboy]

Creationism is pretty dumb, unless you are going to argue like the Sumerians did, that aliens came down and had sex with female apes, and the hybrid resulted in Homospiens.

Cool that probaly means that the phrase get your hands off me you dam dirty ape was uttered in ancient sumer

[Beskar]

Cool that probaly means that the phrase get your hands off me you dam dirty ape was uttered in ancient sumer

Sort of the otherway round. Even though they were vastly old, they believed that gods came from another world and had sex with female of the species for whatever reason, thus giving birth to Homosapiens. Because of this mingling, it is argued this caused the big evolutionary jumps which biologists find hard to explain, because of receiving certain genetic information.

If this sounds too confusing, I will put it this way. Do you remember the final of Battlestar Galatica? Think of it like that. (this will get Lemur at least. knowing what I am on about)

Pretty impressive from a religion from 4000 odd BC.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yeah I have a book on eye witness accounts from history the fist one is a tablet from ancient sumer supposedly that details a young boys day at school and later doing his homework. If you ignore the date at the top of the page it just reads like a kid of today amazing stuff.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Hmmm. It's the foundation of all modern biology. Do you like going to the doctor and not getting a mercury poultice or a leeching? Thank evolution. Do you like your ibuprofen or acetaminophen? Thank evolution. Sheesh, do you like having selective breeding with horses, dogs, and every grain we eat? Thank evolution.

People just get their scrotums in a twist over the idea that evoution might apply to humans. That's what gets them all worked up. Fine then. Evolution applies to bacteria, insects, fungi, plants and animals, but we are special and different.

There. Does that make you happy?

Philip is right, taking ibuprofen doesn't require a belief in evolution. Believing in evolution doesn't make you special.

I would compare evolution denial to football fans claiming their team got robbed by the refs when they didn't. Yes, it's often obviously incorrect, but they believe it because they want to and there isn't much harm in it. Everyone holds some beliefs like that, it's human nature. Not to be applauded, but it is silly to accuse them all of idiocy.

[Lemur]

Philip is right, taking ibuprofen doesn't require a belief in evolution.

In much the same sense that eating a hamburger does not require a belief in ranching.

Believing in evolution doesn't make you special.

Of course it doesn't. Denying the evolutionary process, however, when you ought to know better, does make you special.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hmmm. It's the foundation of all modern biology. Do you like going to the doctor and not getting a mercury poultice or a leeching? Thank evolution. Do you like your ibuprofen or acetaminophen? Thank evolution. Sheesh, do you like having selective breeding with horses, dogs, and every grain we eat? Thank evolution.

People just get their scrotums in a twist over the idea that evoution might apply to humans. That's what gets them all worked up. Fine then. Evolution applies to bacteria, insects, fungi, plants and animals, but we are special and different.

There. Does that make you happy?

Please less invective, I had an argument with a Norwegian friend about "Objective truth" yesterday which resulted in him telling me to do something untoward with my "Christian worldview."

People get upset when I tell them I can slaughter a sheep, and can describe the process in detail, but they still eat chops. You don't need to believe in evolution unless you are a biologist, just like you don't need to believe in the Big Bang or Quantom Theory unless you are a physicist.

[Beskar]

There are important facts that everyone keeps forgetting in this debate.

While evolution seems to explain most things most accurately, and there is evidence all around us of this occuring. End of the day, it is a theory based on availible information and what are deemed facts/evidence to support this claim. End of the day, this theory is not absolute, and would get replaced when sufficient understand causes it too.


Creationism on the otherhand, is an absolute belief which is not wrong or cannot be wrong, that invisible being or beings created everything from nothingness simply into existence at the mere existence of their thought. It is not based on evidence, facts or a colloboration of various things. It is infact, believed solely on a text which originated from a text where there were 7 different versions of creation, with this one being taken as the 'right and absolute one', because they believe everything written by man about this said invisible being.


Now, look at this carefully. Evolution might not be the end answer, but it doesn't claim to be, though it is one of the best we came up so far to explain everything. Creationism is an absolute answer based solely on the word of some one who just wrote down on a piece of papyrus or lamb skin from a time long forgotten.


The reason Creationism is foolish, is because regardless of facts, evidence, or understanding, they just ignore it. They don't attempt to be understanding or even try to, they see it as a threat to their ingrained religious dogma. The issue is not whether or not evolution is the answer, arguably, it is not even whether or not creationism is either. It is the argument of understanding and attempting to understand the world around us.

[Strike For The South]

At first I thought that the only people who didn't believe in evolution were a very small handful of Protestants in the southern USA. I thought that this was just another one of those issues for which people in Europe laugh at us. I was a fool; idiocy respects no borders.

Ah yes because Europeans can do no wrong and southeners are holding the country back.

Stereotyping isn't very fun when simply take what you see from hollywood and put write it down.

[Lemur]

You don't need to believe in evolution unless you are a biologist, just like you don't need to believe in the Big Bang or Quantom Theory unless you are a physicist.

Hmm, well, nobody needs to believe anything in particular. It's just a question of being functional, and dealing with the real world as effectively as possible. You can certainly live a long, healthy and productive life while believing in Young Earth creationism, but you're right, best not to get involved in medicine, bacteriology, pharmacology, nursing or any field that derives from modern biology.

However, you'd have to admit that there's a certain cognitive dissonance in accepting the fruits of modern biology while denying its foundation. That antibiotic that you gave your kid to help with his ear infection? It wouldn't exist without the theory of evolution. Greg Mendel and Chuck Darwin say, "You're welcome!"

[Sasaki Kojiro]

In much the same sense that eating a hamburger does not require a belief in ranching.

Yes...?

Of course it doesn't. Denying the evolutionary process, however, when you ought to know better, does make you special.

Not if 1/3 of the US agrees with you ;)

I see an immature intellectual snobbery streak in liberalism, in america at least. Or maybe I just read too many digg comments even though I know what I'm going to get.

"I'm an atheist, religion is the opiate of the masses"
"You might be a redneck if...you watch nascar and drink domestic pisswater instead of heineken"
"Evolution is fact, idiots deny it"



It's the parallel of the holier than thou moral high ground the conservatives pull (although the liberal pull that on many issues as well).

As someone said earlier in the thread, many people are pleased with themselves for their superiority while actually not knowing much about the subjects.

So what if someone is a creationist. If they are arrogant and self righteous enough to demand that it's taught in science class, then the problem is that they are arrogant and self righteous.

Well, that was mostly on topic anyway

However, you'd have to admit that there's a certain cognitive dissonance in accepting the fruits of modern biology while denying its foundation. That antibiotic that you gave your kid to help with his ear infection? It wouldn't exist without the theory of evolution. Greg Mendel and Chuck Darwin say, "You're welcome!"

How about the cognitive dissonance involved in accepting the foundation and being upset about the fruits?

"Oh no, my apple tree grew apples!"

[Lemur]

Not if 1/3 of the US agrees with you ;)

If that's the polling, I'd be interested to see how the question was phrased. A lot of people accept the role of a Creator without denying the evolutionary process. The two are not mutually exclusive, but a poorly phrased poll might make them seem so.

I see an immature intellectual snobbery streak in liberalism, in america at least.

When regurgitating political clichés, you should heave them up them accurately. Your omitted "ivory tower," "un-American," "liberal elite" and "ivy league." Other than that, well done!

How about the cognitive dissonance involved in accepting the foundation and being upset about the fruits?

"Oh no, my apple tree grew apples!"

Could your example be a little more vague and unclear? Are you referencing something specific, of have you just gone all postmodern on us again?

[Beskar]

Times like this, I wonder why I actually do serious posts and why don't I just post "bollox" in reply to every post to anyone I disagree with.

[Centurion1]

^ bollox

nah you can believe in evolution and god. Most catholics as someone said above do, i am one of them. I dont understand when people cannot allow god to do things in a time that may not be literal to scripture.

[A Very Super Market]

Times like this, I wonder why I actually do serious posts and why don't I just post "bollox" in reply to every post to anyone I disagree with.

bollox, Centurion stole my post.

Edit: Isn't this thread a criticism of creationism?