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Or knowledge vs ignorance?

Centurion1, Just like it's logical to go out an slice people with a knife to check if it all isn't a two dimentional hallucination.

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Look i believe that we as humans are far too small minded to truly understand god and that he works in ways we cannot even comprehend. I also believe that God does not follow the same time as we do and it is vain and arrogant to think that godwould adhere to simple mortal timelines. then it is not so hard to believe that god took the time to go through the process of evolution.

Finally i do not believe that the bible is absolute. God INSPIRED these people, they did not witness the events.

And for you kadavgar, you are being a scientific fundamentalist, unable to accept other peoples views because your view of the world is small and narrow.

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Speak for yourself.

Then, how do you know that the biblical god is the real god? I mean, if you can't understand it?

Your basic argument is - "I have NO idea what I am talking about, but this old book says it's right, so I might aswell go with it"?

The bible seems to be rather precise about certain timelines... so you argue that that part is wrong, but the rest is right?

Is it not hard to believe? Why doesn't the bible mention it then? or the Quran (SP?)?

I'm just saying, if it wasnt hard to imagine, then why did science have such a hard fight with christians about it?

heck, some christians and muslims still are fundamentalist. Am I wrong?



If it isn't absolute, how do you know what parts are false?

No really, what is it that make you decide what is right and wrong in the bible? Logical thinking? If so, why don't you just apply logical thinking to the world at large?

I swear that next one to spell my name will get a balloon...

It can't be that hard to get it right, 3 A:s and 4 consonants. The A:s are always between the consonants. All of the letters can be found in the middle of your keyboard, except the last one where I made it tricky and went up a level.

*sigh*

AS TO WHAT YOU SAID - scientific fundamentalist?

Oh no, I believe in a LOT of things science does not. I however choose to think that science hasn't reached that level yet.

Is my world small and narrow.... Just because I don't believe in the christian god?

I believe in a higher being, or beings, or a higher intellect. I believe so because I have seen signs that points towards the universe having more to give than some thousand year old textbook can explain.

However, the christian or muslim "god" is far from what I believe in.

So, would it be rude to say that you are more narrow minded than me? You just follow some gospel, where I try to reach my own conclusions, based on the combined science we have as of today.

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sorry, kadagar

no my world view is narrow too. It is foolish to assume you know everything about all people.

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You speak of ignorance? Here's one for you; who came up with the theory of the Big Bang?

CR

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CR, why does it matter?

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I had to look that up...nice one

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Knowledge vs Fantasy?

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Knowledge vs Wisdom vs Ignorance vs Fantasy...in a Steel Cage match. Winner claims Reality!

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"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is fantasy?

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*waves*

There is a difference, however, between a fundamentalist and a literalist. A fundamentalist believes the whole Bible is the inspired word of God and free from error, whereas a literalist believes Jesus is a branch.

The whole earth being 6,000 years old thing comes from the calculations of James Ussher, bishop of Armagh, some time in the mid-17th century. However, he presumed that in the main genealogies of the OT, that every person mentioned in them was the actual son of the previous one.

But there are several problems with this approach. First of all, the Hebrew word used doesn't actually mean "son", it just means some form of direct descent. So when Matthew calls Jesus "Jesus, son of David, son of Abraham" (Matthew 1:1), that hasn't reduced the age of the earth to just over 2,000 years old for us today. Also, the numbers of names listed in the genealogies is significant. To quote from one article (the one given below):



This makes sense given the function of the genealogies, which tended to be for things such as keeping the priestly line in the OT, or proving Jesus descent from David because of the prophecy about that etc.

This article shows that you can be a fundamentalist and believe the earth is over 6,000 years old (more that that, it seems to indicate that you should).

Of course, I don't believe you can reconcile evolution with the Bible, then I would just be picking and choosing. I don't have the knowledge to make a really informed decision about it, neither do most people who think they do, and so I just take it on faith that God created Adam as the first human, simply because it's part of a much larger worldview. So shoot me.

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Is it really so difficult to plagiarise every myth/religion/belief preceding yours, especially Zoroastrianism and Mithraism, and then call it a new, 'wise', and most heinously, 'the only true' religion? There is literally almost nothing unique as far as the major concepts go in the Bible or Christianity as a religion.

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Grace?

Find that somewhere else, as in unmerited, uncontractural salvation achieved solely through love.

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Find that in the Old Testament. The Bible is overtly contradictory anyhow. And the last time I checked, up until recently, fear was the main trump card of a priest proselyting... People nowadays mainly say they "love God", but not too long ago everyone affirmed their piety by insisting they "feared God".

That said, I am sure it is not too difficult to find holes in that. So how about Hinduism and the bhakti marga? Same principle - love brings salvation. Read Joseph Campbell. His works will show you how similar everything is. And he is no random demagogue. No, he is the father of comparative religion, in the sense that he is the most respected figure in the field. There are four yogas, four paths to moksha, the liberation of the soul from the samsara. They are raja, jnana, karma, and bhakti. Meditation and self-mastery, knowledge, work, and love (all respectively). The four paths.

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That depends on what 'view' of Christianity you're talking about though.

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That's Augustine, 350 years after Jesus died. The Bible is not a "book", it is a collection of writings.

Christianity has only one path though, doesn't it?

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Bollox. Please do not seriously tell me you believe in that. I have not read one respected, objective theologian who insists Christianity is but one path. On the contrary, Smith and Campbell, the two chief authorities, argue to the opposite of what you proclaimed.

And what difference would it make, that Christianity has only one path anyway? I was pointing out that nearly everything in Christianity is plagiarised, to put it harshly. If Christianity has one path and it is not unique, then what difference does it make? My point remains. I never claimed the structure of Christianity was identical. But the details. All the details are virtually the same, although they may be re-arranged to custom-tailor the religion.

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Campbell's work was based on his own religious beliefs (Total Nominalism). So.... No more reliable than anyone else he was also not a Theologian, but a mythologist.

In any case, demonstrate Grace is not unique to Christianity. That there is only one path is itself a unique aspect.

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So how do you explain this?: Mithra was god who took on the human form and was in fact born of a virgin. If such origins are not similar enough, he belonged to the holy trinity and was the link between Heaven and Earth. Not surprisingly, he ascended into heaven after his death - he was in a tomb and it took him three days to be resurrected. Folowers of Mithraism believe in heaven and hell (with demons), a day of judgment, practise baptism, refer to Mithra as 'the Light of the World', 'Sheperd', 'Redeemer/Saviour', or even the 'Messiah'. They eat bread and drink of wine to symbolise Mithra's flesh and blood.

On top of this, Mithra had twelve companions and he travelled around, performing miracles. As in any religion, teaching of the great flood are in Mithraism as well. Oh, and of course, no wonder the Church made December 25th, the midnight, as Christ's official B-day. 'Cause Mithra's birthday was on the same date. Coincidence? Everyone knows that the Church merely wanted to monopolise on the worship on that date. Just as Mithra's day was Sunday.

I am not even going into Zoroastrianism yet... But it was the earliest example, without the messianic figure the likes of Jesus and Mithra.

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Look, I am not saying Christianity is a literal carbon copy of some single religion. Christianity takes practically its every concept, belief, story from someone else, often a number of faiths, and puts it in some place within its structure. You cannot expect one religion to be identical to the other - a bit of cosmetic change is needed to get people upgrade from Judaism 1.0 to Christianity 2.0.

People will not buy Windows 7 if it has absolutely zero new features and does not look different. But if it is more streamlined, merely looks different, and is given out at a lower price (Christianity was available and advertised to everyone, unlike some other religions), then people will swallow it, despite the fact it actually has less features than Vista, and still consumes vastly more resources than XP.

Grace is little different from the main tenets of Mithraism or Bhakti marga, which is where Mithraism got its idea, which was in turn 'borrowed' by Christianity. The concept is the same, save for a few aesthetic details.

BTW, good job on overlooking that the Old Testament bears little real relation to the New one though... That was quite a steal from the Jews... Not many religions can take something and adopt it practically without changing it and then call it their own... Forget the fact that the Old Testament champions entirely different laws, regulations, paths to salvation, morals, themes, etc... :S

EDIT:
Well yeah, I mean, I am not calling Christians idiots or anything. Someone gets a same base and everyone goes different ways from the same source. That is only natural. That is why I am not taking anything but the Bible and Early Christianity (which already had wildly differing views of course, but meh, at least they were in the beginning stages of the development).

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The whole NT is about the fulfilment of the OT. In the OT, God gave all the ceremonial laws to the Jews as a curse for making the golden calf, but with the promise that their messiah would come eventually. The fancy laws and regulations for the Jewish peope are described in the NT as being symbolic of everything that Christ would do.

Also, things like the Ten Commandments did serve a purpose, just not what the people thought they did at the time. So whereas the Jewish people thought they had to live by some set laws to earn a place in heaven, Christ comes along at tells them that the strictness of the law only served to show them that they couldn't follow it by their own merit, and that it should have driven them to seek redemption through him instead. Otherwise, how would the language of David in the Psalms make any sense? He always speaks of his redeemer, his rock, his foundations etc... do these sound like the words of a man whose following the law by himself? No, because his failure to fulfil the law pointed him to Christ. That's why many Reformed theologians argue that Old and New Covenants were one and the same in that they were both rooted in Christ's blood; however the means were different, with the latter pointing lifting the curse of the law and pointing us to Christ more directly.

Granted, the OT and NT appear very different, in that the first speaks of salvation through works, the latter through regeneration by God. The OT is all about symbolism and ethnic Israel foreshadowing the journey of all Christians (Hebrews 7-11), the NT is about restoring the link to God more directly.

For most Christians though, their beliefs are justified by the fact that they are supposed to be the same as those of the early Christians.

Also, regarding Mithra etc, I thought these 'similarities' with the Bible weren't really taken seriously? These points pop up a lot on the TWC's religious forum, but the hardline atheists there (a guy called Tankbuster in particular if you know him) say that these theories are rubbish and were largely conjured up by some German historians in the 19th Century with a lack of any serious evidence.

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Yah, you think this is a first time I heard this? People go through colossal feats of logic, knowledge, resources, pure effort and most of all, stupidity, to justify their faith. I am not pointing fingers at anyone because everyone is doing it. I can justify anything using your logic. Anything. The point that irked me the most, though, was what would happen to Jews after Christ came? Why in the blooping heel would God, the epitome of all tings reactionary, stable, unchanging, etc turn a whole religion upside down and force people to accept an entirely new truth after believing in another truth for millennia after millenia? Yah, right.

And seriously, how many millions were slaughtered by God's commands in the Old Testament? You had thousands murdered for the smallest of things, sometimes so small, it becomes laughable. How does Jesus' principle of "turning the other cheek" fit into this? I mean, we are going from a Hitler to Ghandi change here. You think I will swallow that? Did God just change his morals or what?

Yes, I you may say I am simplifying things, but what is your excuse for this? I want to hear it.

Sure, I can digest the fact God gives different instructions to people. Alright. But we are talking about god himself changing. Day after day I wonder how people can remain theistic. If anything, ignorance is the chief factor. Now you and PVC are certainly not that, as you have though aplenty on this topic, but does it console you that the vast majority of your colleagues stick their heads up their rumps and flush their brains down the drains in order to adhere to their beliefs?



Yeah, right. I am SURE you yourself do not believe that. Right? Please say yes. Christianity, as all religions, changes so much over time that... Well, no need to blabber any more on this aspect.

Of course they are not taking seriously. We all know they exist, we all know Mithraism existed around six hundred years before Christ and that it became popular over a wide area around the time of Jesus, but srsly, who cares? So much easier to ignore it, right? Who wants to challenge their beliefs. Happy are those who are ignorant. Change is stressful. Change is bad.

Look, Rhy, your argument(?) is pushing the boundary of farce and humour. I struggled to maintain my dignity as I was typing in the Uni library. I know nothing of TWC - the only sorts of forums I visited there were the EB forums. (nvm, I thought you meant that because so many people use my argument on TWC, it is thus rendered invalid, sorry, I misunderstood you) However, what is known is that at least half the time, commonly circulating arguments probably have good grounds. The other half, they may not. Mostly, though, every argument contains at least a portion of truth.

That said, the reason for my amusement was that one cannot simply pull such solid facts out of nothing. These are not statistics or numbers or some random hypotheses we are speaking of. Mithraism was what I said it was. That was it. Take the facts in any manner you wish, but they are there, and simply because some deranged, bile-filled atheist is spilling them with reckless fury (yeah, I know that type, sadly) does not make the facts false. Your latter part of the post was quite a logical fallacy...

I wonder where Tankbuster is coming from. Beats me. I merely know what I read in my books on comparative religion. Mithraism is quite hazily documented, but the data is still there. And Zoroastrianism gave rise to much of Mithraism, and Zoroastrian beliefs heavily correlate with those of Mithraism. Messianic cults were commonplace back then. Countless characteristics of Mithraism were borrowed from other religions - blending is what makes every religion we now of. We can point out quite a bit of the Mithraic beliefs and their origins.

No reason why Christianity is an exception. Just as any religion, it built itself on the past. And the idea it continues Judaism is racist (towards Jews, and anti-Semitic would be a slightly better term), chauvinistic, unfounded, and downright laughable. An odd sect, one among hundreds, pops out of Judea. A charismatic figure gathers a flock of followers. The religion is persecuted, but then a state endorses it. The state happens to be a vast empire, and it spreads the message. Eventually, various religious philosophers, the clergy, historians, and general academics of the time attempt to legitimise and give depth to the religion by linking it to a old religion, claiming the new religion was just a "new revelation", but then hastily add that it is also the "final revelation" as well, lest another upstart takes away the monopoly on obfuscating and milking the hapless populace. Result: much of that part of the world believes in the "new" religion. The same story happens all the time, although usually on a smaller scale.


Nothing of that is new. Look at Islam. Founded by Mohammed, who was born in a time of unimaginable looseness of morals and behaviour in Arabia. The local populace worshiped jinns, the desert spirits all around him. Except that their reverence could barely, if at all, could be constituted as 'worship'. Empty of meaning, he went to the desert hermit-philosophers. They pointed to one of the jinns who they called 'Allah'. He was the most powerful, they said, and the only true one. Mohammed believed. But around him, people did not. For his preaching, he was eventually expelled (escaped more accurately). To a place we now call Medina. They liked him there, and he administrated them, as a governor. A helluva adept one too.

Long story short, he founded what would become the Islamic, Arab Empires. Instead of using an Empire, his followers become one, and spread the message. While on the home front, Mohammed claims he is merely continuing the tradition of the Jews, and that Moses, Abraham, Noah, Jesus, etc were all great prophets, but he was the final one. There goes the legitimisation. And it always points to the Jews, who had one of the oldest, most respected religion in the region.


Exact same story. Earlier religions, however, were not mutually exclusive, but were nevertheless often forcefully imposed. Similar trends occurred.

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It's every concept? That is an extremely totalitarian statement, and requires justification and evidence cited from sources if you want it to stand up.

Christianity doesn't borrow its theology from Mithraism, just some of it's forms. The list you cited in your previous post is inaccurate. Although Mithras was born of a virgin he was not the same God as his father, and his followers did not celebrate his death, but his sacrifice of a white bullock in a cave. This is why they worshipped inside, in actual caves sometimes, but built Mithraiums did influence early church arcitechture; while the use of bread and wine was borrowed from Christians.

You have, however, missed the fundamental differences. Mithras accepted only men, and warriors to boot, Mithrists also acknowledged other Gods but worshipped only Mithras.

Seems to me like you're saying anyone with a belief is an idiot.

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PVC, I think our friend Aemilius Paulus does not mean that.

Having a belief is ok... Following dogma without thinking however is, well... It is ok, people can do whatever they want as long as they dont hurt others, but you can't complain when people call you an idiot.

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The thing is, I'm don't think that the early Christians really were that different from the Jews. Although some atheists use the term "Jesus sect" mockingly, it's really quite appropriate for what was a liberal messianic offshoot of Judaism. After Christianity became accepted in the Roman Empire, it did of course change dramatically. But before Christians actively tried to dissasociate themselves from Jews by doing things like changing the sabbath, they really musn't have appeared that different. At the end of the day, both Jews and Christians still follow the Ten Commandments, and the same moral law in general. They share concepts such as a sabbath day and it is for both Saturday (although Jesus was morelaid back about it). The biggest difference is in terms of the ceremonial practices of the Jews, however it should be remembered that these were only ever given by God to ethnic Israel, and not Gentiles. So I think Christianity's break from it's Jewish roots was a very gradual process, and they have been increasingly revived through several theories. For example, the idea of 'spiritual Israel', or even more ethnic based, British Israelism.

Regarding 'turning the other cheek', that is due to the fact that Jesus says that all judgment rests with God alone.

Also, I don't think that God changes in the NT from the OT. People always say how Jesus says God is all about love etc... but at the same time, remember, Jesus believed that God was going to send the majority of mankind to burn in hell. This 'paradox' of a wrathful/loving God isn't between the genocidal God of the OT and the loving God of the NT, since those stereotypes are wrong. It's very much a paradox of the NT.

Indeed, I feel that many Christians today do not try to adress this apparent paradox. They say that my understanding of Christianity (Calvinism) is hypoctrical since Jesus was so accepting... they seem to be forgetting that Jesus would turn people away if they refused to surrender everything when they would leave to join him. They say Jesus was always about forgiveness, and yet as I said above, he believed most people were going to a very nasty place. Frequently I've been told that Puritans/Presbyterians etc put the message of the OT over the NT, but it seems to me like these people are just picking and choosing the bits they like from the NT.

As to whether this is in fact a paradox or not, that would require a big theological discussion. Generally, I would say it boils down to a case of 'tough love' - Jesus is accepting of even the worst of sinner, but only when they come in genuine repentance.

I don't quite understand what you're saying there, but I believe there is one true Christian faith. I don't believe we become Christians because we are raised in a certain environment, one that has changed dramatically over the centuries with various historic forces, political maneuvres etc. Rather, I attribute it to the regenerative power of Christ. I'm sure it seems silly to non-Christians, but it's a pretty central idea to the faith.

Of course, this does not mean that I am not aware of just how much 'Christianity' has changed ever since it became institutionalised and prone to corruption. To borrow Ian Paisley's phrase, I believe 'Bible Protestantism' is the true continuation of what the earliest Christians believed.

I lol'd at the misunderstanding, that would have been a spectacular ad hominem if I had meant that.

My point was simply that from what I've seen, many of these stories of startling similarities between various ancient Gods and Jesus are not really so spectacular once people get the facts straight. Of course, I would expect there to be some degree of truth in them, considering how people so often traded myths and Gods around these times. However, to use them as proof that Christianity is plagiarised is a bit unfair from what I've seen (I'm no expert just going from what little I know on this). Here's an example of one of the threads I'm talking about at the TWC.

It just seems that these Zeitgeist theories are part of a slightly 'tacky' atheist culture which seems to have been spawned by internet debates between militant atheists and US Evangelical fundamentalists. Other elements of this culture, like the whole "religion causes wars" thing can be cringeworthy at times. Of course, we Christians are just as bad, and we argue in turn how Hitler was an atheist and that Darwin's theory of evolution caused the Holocuast. But so goes the magical world of the internet (except here, of course).

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Are you kidding?

Would be interesting to see how you back that up.

Logic tells me that there are WAY more, say, American christians with christian parents, than chinese christians with non-christian parents...

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Hey, religion never makes any sense, nor conforms to any school of logic ever devised... On the contrary, it (mainly the Christians while proselyting) exploits nearly every logical fallacy taught in your average secondary/post-secondary English Composition and Writing classes...

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Bah! American Evanglicalism, Orthodox, Roman Catholic Church are just torture poor souls with all the trappings of the whore of Babylon!

Most people that call themselves Christians today aren't really part of the true church. Yes how shockingly intolerant of me, Jesus accepted everyone, right!?

The only time God's promises are granted through generations of families is when they are part of the original covenant with ethnic Israel. Just like us God-fearing Protestants of Ulster and Scotland! We are the descendents of the lost tribes of Israel! Cú Chullain and then the Culdees have defended us from the pagan Romanists ever since they arrived on the British Isles from Spain! But now the beast is attacking the earthly inheritance of God's chosen people, and the Pope will desecrate the temple mount when he declares a new era of peace in the middle east and shows himself to be the antichrist! And this will coincide with a united Ireland and the break up of the Union. Coincidence?! No, Israel is foreshadowing the final persecution of the God's people by the harlot church, and the fate of all Christians will be synonymous with that of ethnic Israel as the Book of Revelation plays itself out.

Am I being a crazy enough fundamentalist now?

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In my experience, yes.

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You have always been so

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