A few misc. questions

[Brian_]

Hello Gents,

I've a few questions I've always wondered about:

1. With regard to alliances...I guess my first question is, why bother? There doesn't seem to be anything binding with AI clans and they'll attack you with or without an agreement between you.

Does anyone think there's anything worthwhile in trying to make an alliance?

2. Ashigaru...I'm wondering, how advisable would it be to use them in the front lines as cheap fodder, primarily something to absorb arrows and wear down the opposing side so my good troops don't have to take the damage. Would that work or would it backfire? I'm thinking that when the Ashigaru panic, as they are wont to do, they'll influence the samurai behind them. Your thoughts?

3. In the battle dialogue where they ask if you want the computer to automatically resolve the battle (as opposed to you personally leading it), how good is the AI going to be? I know that's a vague question and here's what I've done in the past; I've found that when an army gets above say, 700 men, I have difficulty coordinating the units and it beomes rather inefficient. So I'm inclined to have the sim resolve those battles with the mindset that the computer will inevitably do a better job than I can. What are you thoughts about using the sim AI to fight for you?

[gollum]

Hello Brian_,

1). About alliances:

The reason why alliances matter in STW is twofold:

a) Alliances buy you off time to deal with a more imminent threat. If you are a clan that is facing more than one potential enemies along its borders it is imperative to keep them off your back until you deal with others first. Otherwise you are risking being attacked by more than one clan and being swamp by enemy numbers even if you are winning battles.

b) If you are playing with MI/WE then alliances have the added benefits of: giving you 250koku/year/ally, and also of disturbing the web of allies of other clans as no clan can remain allied to any other clans that are at war with each other in this version of the game.

2). About Ashigaru:

Actually Yari Ashigaru are used optimally not as fodder but as number complement; their strengths are: cheap recruitment/upkeep, fast, anticavalry bonus.

As such they are best used for:
-guarding flanks or supporting gunners against cavalry raids

-adding numbers to your army as the STW engine gives penalties to all units that are outnumbered locally (within a certain range of their position), hence just outnumbering an enemy units with your ashigaru without engaging actually has an effect.

-chasing down enemy units particularly expensive slow units such as naginata and yari samurai to make sure they dont join back in or get more kills at the end of a battle.

-Occasionally flankers due to their speed, especially if you are using your general/daimyo to go with them in a flanking maneuver to ensure their morale does not break. This works if you have more number than the opponent, so after engaging all theirs there is nothing preventing you flanking them.

-Cavalry interceptors, as there is nothing better to see expensive Yari cavalri losing their mobility advantage by the cheap Yari Ashigaru, especially if they are cought inside a forest.

- Reserves and gap pluggers; Yari Ashigaru may not be impressive against other melee footroops when the melee begins and everyone's fresh, however after some time of fighting, fatigue and casualties makes all engaged units far less battle effective and in that time throwing in the Ashigaru to tip the number scales and engage them can be decicive. If you can achieve partial flanking in addition all the better.

In addition if your battle line is faltering and is ready to break before say your flanking cavalry can backstab the enemy in the back, throw the ashigaru to plug the gaps in hold formation/hold position that enhances their defence and makes them take casualties slower; this will buy you enough time to complete your maneuver. Remember however to do it sometime before your battle line routs, otherwise teh Ashigaru won't engage but turn tail and run!

The use you suggest is the wrong one; if you use Yari Ashigaru as fodder and engage them first or let them take a missile punichment, you risk them routing due to their low morale/low battle stats or due to high casualities; this takes away your numerical advantage and tips the number scales in favor of your opponent in the morale department, negates you a reserve and finally entails the risk that your whole army turns tail and run soon after engagement - its true that the ashigaru routing won't affect Samurai directly, however they will affect the number scales that also have morale penalties.

The correct units to take missile casualties duting the pre-engagement missile duel are missile units: archers and gunners (and occasionaly cavalry archers if you have nothign else, however they'll take casualties fast as they are a bigger target than foot troops so avoid using them in this way unless you have 4-5 of them) - set them in loose formation if you are heavily outgunned and try to engage in melee asap if you have the force to do so. Otherwise consider retreating.

3). Regarding Autoresolve:

The autoresolve function in STW, is tipped against the player, particularly at the higher difficulty settings, so it is always advisable to fight your battles in person, especially if the odds are not in your favor. Notice here that the calculation of the autoresolve the AI does, is based on a simple formula apparently that takes into account, numbers, leadership (general's stars), stat strength of units and any upgrades and morale. However as i said it is sligtly handicaped against the player.

4). Regarding army co-ordination:

You are probably doing the typical error new players are doing of trying to control each unit individually that indeed makes you ineffective. The way past that problem is to use groups - and in the maneuvering phase command them and not individual units. During engagement you can split one or two units for say flanking or reserve that you can use individually, but on the whole you should deal with your army in blocks.

The grouping function is as follows:
Group with Control+Shift+Number
Recall with Control+Number

You can designate subgroups of that group or even have groups that span other groups - the grouping feature in STW/MTW is excellent and really great for online play.

Its best usually to designate three basic groups:

1. Missiles as a front line (acrhers in the early game, gunners when/if you get them)

2. Melee: this can be a staggered formation of Yari Samurai and Melee specialists ie the "sword" units Naginata/WMonks/Nodachi. The reason for the staggering is that if your melee line is engaged by enemy heavy cavalry the "swords" will be protected by the spears on either side of them. The spears on the other hand benefit from the presence of the "swords" when your melee line engages with the enemy "swords" that can kill off the spears pretty quickly.

3. Cavalry: although cavalry is best used in individual units, its good to have a group of them to move them around pre-engagement or to recall them if they disperse during the fight.

In addition you can use your whole army in formation: put your whole army in the formation of your choice (manually or use the pre-made ones) and then group them with control+A(=all) and then G for group. Note that you can ungroup anytime by pressingG again.

This will make them march in formation ie keeping the distances of the formation intact while on march. If you wish to rotate any of the units you have selected including w whole army group, then simply do alt+right click in the direction that you want them to face.

Try to use these until you feel you can do them without makng a conscious effort - after which point you will be able to coordinate all 16 units without problem.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I don't trust the autoresolve because it once lost a castle assault against a single ashigaru soldier. He killed 100 of my men!

[gollum]

...trauma

[Brian_]

I don't trust the autoresolve because it once lost a castle assault against a single ashigaru soldier. He killed 100 of my men!

Wow. That's one tough Ashigaru...it must have been Musashi Miyamoto!

[gollum]

... in disguise

[Brian_]

:

a) Alliances buy you off time to deal with a more imminent threat. If you are a clan that is facing more than one potential enemies along its borders it is imperative to keep them off your back until you deal with others first. Otherwise you are risking being attacked by more than one clan and being swamp by enemy numbers even if you are winning battles.

I've thought about this but aren't AI clans pretty much all treacherous? I mean, do they really place any value on agreements such that I can trust them to keep their word?

[gollum]

From what i gather from the relevant parameters in the AI preferences for the AI personalities, the AI clans can invade you on the basis of:

a) They think that they are ready to invade you.

b) They find your border garissons weak enough to chance an opportunistic attack and see what happens further.

There are "invasion values" that control these and these values are lowered if you are an ally and to a certain extent if you are neutral. They are highest if you are at war. So by being an ally you increase your chances of the AI laeving you in peace and selecting other targets until your hands are freed. In the same manner even if an AI clan attempts to attack you unsuccesfully, you can offer ceasefire or accept their offer - dont stubbornly reject it, because then the AI may also stubbornly keep attacking you which although not dangerous may steal precious development time and resources or progress against another clan.

The AI clans are ruthless as you are but are also facing the same multifront problem that you do; so unless the AI feels absolutely ready to invade you (that is he is extremely rich and prosperous and has a lot of regions etc), these considerations matter to him. Once he is ready though you can discard them, which is basically the same the player does. But you can tell when he has reached this point because then he completely disregard diplomacy not only towards you but towards the other AI clans too.



edit: Forgtot to mention that certain Daimyos are assigned personalities that are less trustworthy than others. Typically in the beginning of the game, the Hojo and Shimazu are reliable, while the Takeda and Mori are not with the other three gravitating in between. However their heirs can be given different personalities at random. To know the personality of teh Daimyo you must have any agent in the province he resides for the season; then right click the base of his counter iirc.

[Brian_]

Thanks for the great information, Gollum.

[gollum]

You are welcome Brian_, enjoy

[phred]

I've thought about this but aren't AI clans pretty much all treacherous? I mean, do they really place any value on agreements such that I can trust them to keep their word?

One trick to keeping an alliance is to keep a health army on your mutual border. The instant you reduce your border army, the ally will backstab.
I've had an alliance last the whole game using this method. But that was only ONCE in all my STW games, and I usually don't have enough koku to keep large stacks inactive on my ally's border (until late in the game).
I'm currently playing Imagawa and I don't have any money. I'm hoping my ally Oda doesn't backstab me anytime soon, because my border guards are pretty weak.

Edit: Also, another good reason to make alliances is you may inherit provinces when your ally is defeated and his provinces go rebel.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Does anyone think there's anything worthwhile in trying to make an alliance?

Nothing wrong with making alliances.....just don't trust them to last. I've been playing STW since it's release and in all the games I've played I've had exactly two......2.......alliances that lasted the entire game until my clan and my ally's were the only two left. I didn't have the heart to finish them off, even tho' I could have.........too much of a softy, I guess

My suggestion is to never autoresolve unless you are at the end of the campaign and just don't feel like fighting a 12000 vs 12000 battle. If you have teppo in an army guarding a river province, you will not make out very well as teppo have poor melee stats when in reality the teppo tip the balance in your favor if you fight it yourself. If I had autoresolved some of the battles in my last Oda 1580 campaign, for instance, where I was defending against 3000+ attackers in Mikawa and Mino, I would have lost battles that I easily won. Besides, you learn nothing about fighting technique if you autocalc.......

You are probably doing the typical error new players are doing of trying to control each unit individually that indeed makes you ineffective.

A very fine post, gollum, but I don't agree with this particular point. In big defensive battles against multiple stack invasions, I very much manage each individual unit to maximize their defensive value, to pull them out of the line for rest, and to direct my archers and teppo from one part of the battlefield to another. In particular for bridge defense. Every unit has a specific task and I simply do not trust the battle AI to get a unit where I want it, when I want it. On the attack, I tend to use grouping a bit, but only to get my troops across the battlefield. Once battle is joined, I'm back to my old micro-managing self...............

Also, another good reason to make alliances is you may inherit provinces when your ally is defeated and his provinces go rebel.

Don't hold your breath for this to happen. I could count the number of times I've inherited a vanquished ally's lands on one hand, for all the games I've played. I've had the AI give all of an ally's lands to a second ally even tho' I was the first and biggest ally to that clan

[gollum]

Originally posted by Reluctant Samurai
Once battle is joined, I'm back to my old micro-managing self

That's actually the right way to do it imo; however its best to "choose" which of the units are worth your time and attention otherwise you may suffer from an attention split and neglect an area that may prove critical. This is best done, by learning to use the interface and filter out the information it transmits, but also by mastering unit behaviour and the morale system that allows you to make predictions that come true.

A very fine post, gollum...

Thank you,

[Brian_]

Here's a few more questions;

1. Do units ever recover fatigue through rest? In other words, if I pull a unit out of the battle, can I expect that they'll recover any of their lost energy points?

2. I've used Shinobi in enemy provinces to lower peasant loyalty and increase the odds of an insurrection. Is that strategy worthwhile in Rebel provinces? From what I've observed, the loyalty level will go no lower than 100 in those provinces.

3. It seems like the overall skill level of ronin/rebels is quite poor. But if they possess a general with say, four stars--can I expect that they and their units will have the same skill/morale as an army from a named clan having the same level of general?

4. How do Shinobi gain levels of experience? Is it by residing in enemy provinces or by discovering ninja?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Here's a few more questions;

1. Do units ever recover fatigue through rest? In other words, if I pull a unit out of the battle, can I expect that they'll recover any of their lost energy points?

Yes, I think they will recover some fatigue, I wouldn't recommend pulling them out of battle though. The only thing you really have to know about fatigue is that you shouldn't march quickly when you don't have to, that taking long flanking maneuvers might not be worth it in winter, and that very tired/exhausted troops are weaker and less brave and should be treated as such.

2. I've used Shinobi in enemy provinces to lower peasant loyalty and increase the odds of an insurrection. Is that strategy worthwhile in Rebel provinces? From what I've observed, the loyalty level will go no lower than 100 in those provinces.

No, rebel provinces can't rebel.

3. It seems like the overall skill level of ronin/rebels is quite poor. But if they possess a general with say, four stars--can I expect that they and their units will have the same skill/morale as an army from a named clan having the same level of general?

Yes, in fact some of the ronin can be quite dangerous, especially the monk armies.

4. How do Shinobi gain levels of experience? Is it by residing in enemy provinces or by discovering ninja?

It works the same way general upgrades do I think. Catching an enemy agent or causing a rebellion counts as 1 "win".

So rank 1: 1 win
rank 2: 2 wins
rank 3: 4 wins
rank 4: 8 wins

Although with ninja, killing higher honor generals gets them promoted faster, and something like that might occur with shinobi.

[Brian_]

Great answers. Thanx Sasaki-san.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Managing fatigue becomes quite important in very large battles with multiple stacks. Although troops will never regain enough energy to get to the 'fresh/quite fresh' stage, even 'tired' will do for troops with moderate honor (like 2 or 3) and well led.

The trick in defensive battles is to make the best match of what you have against what the enemy currently has on the battlefield. In the meantime, rest the troops you won't be needing for the current stage of the battle.

There is a tendency to overwork cavalry in long battles, and I certainly did (and still do, to some extent) when I was learning to fight these types of battles. It's verrrry inticing to chase every router off the field with your cavalry but after the 2nd or 3rd wave should be avoided because fatigue will slow them considerably and they might easily be caught by fresh enemy cav entering the field.....and trust me....I learned this one the hard way

Another thing to manage is formation for depleted units. As an example, your yari spear unit has been reduced from say 60 to 30. If the unit started the battle in four rows, they may be in only three or even two rows now. Not good for resisting a cavalry charge. Reconfigure them back to four rows. Yes it shortens the line which might allow a 'wrap-around effect' but I've found deeper ranks resist charges better than shallow ones. This is most certainly true for ashi units who prefer the 'comfort' of mass.

Be picky about which units you choose to withdraw from the battle. Even archers with depleted ammo can be of use if they can attack downhill or hide in forests. I rearrange mine into 5 rows (from the 3-deep formation they use when shooting) and put them somewhere to rest until needed. On more than one occasion they have helped plug a hole in the line that might have spelled defeat had they not been there.

A bit of a ramble, I know, but just topics I thought went hand-in-hand with managing fatigue

[Brian_]

Another thing to manage is formation for depleted units. As an example, your yari spear unit has been reduced from say 60 to 30. If the unit started the battle in four rows, they may be in only three or even two rows now. Not good for resisting a cavalry charge. Reconfigure them back to four rows. Yes it shortens the line which might allow a 'wrap-around effect' but I've found deeper ranks resist charges better than shallow ones. This is most certainly true for ashi units who prefer the 'comfort' of mass.

Interesting. What about when the enemy has no cavalry to be used against me? What is the best depth for Yari lines?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I've always used the default, which is 4x15 I think. Not really concerned about a wraparound effect, and stretching the unit out makes it hard to fit through the gaps in the enemy line in order to flank them.

[gollum]

There is no optimal depth for all situations really, what ReluctantSamurai says is that depleted units of spears are best given some depth as otherwise you are risking them routing upon being charged.

When YariSam are fesh (and sometimes even when they are not) you can take a lot of space deploying them in 2-3 ranks; even engage two enemy units with one yours. This in turn frees one of your units for flanking purposes or to hold in another part of the line. If you want them to hold for longer under such conditions put them in hold position or hold position/hold formation.

PS And of course what Sasaki says its true about long lines getting stuck and being unable to flank; in cases that you wantyour troops manoeuvrable a stocky rectangular formation (approaching a square but not exactly) is best.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yup, if you have a yari sam and a no dachi vs two yari sam for example, you can put your yari sam in an extra long formation and then flank with the no dachi. Just don't try that if they have warrior monks

I usually find better ways to flank, or soften them up with arrows first and rout a weak unit.

[gollum]

It also works if you have a Warrior Monk or Nodachi and want to engage two of their yarisam. Its really good economy and brings victory even faster (if you flank them) than it would anyway come

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Often in a 2 on 2 I'll double one of their units with my 2 (flanking) and let the AI bumble around trying to flank...unless it's a tough unit or both of yours are low attack, you can usually finish off the one unit and turn around in time to prevent the flanking move. And then flank that unit

Especially if you have a cav unit, you can lead one of theirs away and then turn back.

[gollum]

Seems you are one of those fellows that can double each unit in turn Sasaki until there's no more; can you do that in mp too? If so, i wouldnt want to face you...

[ReluctantSamurai]

What is the best depth for Yari lines?

There is no "best" depth for any unit, really. Depth depends on several things, as I see it.

Archer/teppo units should be in 3 lines to maximize fire. 3 lines for teppo gives you the rolling fire (it's fun to watch those little guys reloading their muskets) but there are occasions where muskets can be deployed in 2 lines to devastating effect. [One of my favorite tactics is to lure an enemy cavalry unit with a cav archer towards a dbl. line of musket in loose formation and fire-at-will is turned off. The cav archer retreats through the teppo, who then close ranks and fire-at-will is now turned on which means the whole unit fires a complete volley. By then, my CA have wheeled back around and charge the enemy unit. If combined with a second flanking charge from another cavalry unit, even a 4 or 5 honor unit usually breaks]

Sometimes, if space is cramped on a hill position, and I want maximum damage to be inflicted at the start of battle, I'll place archers 4 deep to make sure they stay on a hill. This is a rare occurance, and I try not to leave them that way for long.

4 or 5 ranks for YS, depending on how good they are (honor-wise) and how much cavalry they are facing. 4 ranks is probably the most flexible, but I use 5 on occasion when I have lots of them and a good defensive position.

Ashi should really be in as close to a square as possible. They are much more comfortable with mass than with stretch.

Cav archers are one of those units you need to micro-manage a bit. For scouting purposes, a broad, squarish formation is fine, but when contact is made, you really should go to 3 or 4 lines for maximum sniping effect. I'm sure you've seen the AI do this repeatedly, and for good reason....it works. You can then change back to another formation as necessary, but if you use them a part of a cavalry charge, definitely 'square them up" to give some punch to the charge[IIRC, CA don't get any or a very small charge bonus?].

Most other cavalry units do best in a squarish formation that is a bit deeper than it is wide, but if the need arises, you can change to wedge to break a line. Not recommended, for the most part, as your unit will sustain much higher losses, but...........if the battle is 'sitting on a knifes edge' so-to-speak, and that stubborn monk unit defending the middle of their line is the lynch-pin, then use any means at your disposal. I prefer Naginata cavalry for this because of their melee bonus, but I've done it with Yari cav who get a very high charge bonus [perhaps not as dramatic as the Rohirrim's charge at Helm's Deep in the LoTR movie, but just as effective]

Monks and ND are good in 4 ranks, but I will deepen that to 5 or 6 if I'm on the defensive and the enemy has lots of cavalry. No-Dachi are also good line-breakers in wedge, and if you play Shimazu you get them for 225koku instead of the usual 300. No-Dachi kill a lot and die a lot, so don't expect many to survive

I'm sure there's plenty more that can be added to that.

[gollum]

Good post ReluctantSamurai.