Border Forts

[Brian_]

Hey Gents,

I'm wondering about the viability of Border Forts, mostly because I would like to use them to increase loyalty in provinces in the same way that the presence of Shinobi do.

Is that going to work or do they only function as a set of eyes, always in place?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I don't know if they increase loyalty. I find shinobi to be much more effective, since you can move them around once a province no longer has loyalty problems.

[caravel]

I don't know if they increase loyalty. I find shinobi to be much more effective, since you can move them around once a province no longer has loyalty problems.

Totally agree with Sasaki, border forts are not really worthwhile in STW, go for Shinobi which can gain in honour and effectiveness. I like to keep at least one honour 2 plus Shinobi in each province.

[gollum]

hello Brian_,

Sasaki Kojiro and Asai Nagamasa are absolutely right; i guess one may make a case of border forts have more "capacity" (infinite?) in capturing numbers of enemy agents (like ninja and shinobi) that enter one of your regions, and act as a permanent boost for the happines there; however a pact of shinobis does the job far far better and can be useful once the border region has changed, not to mention that they valor up pretty easily if you use them that way that makes them even more effective.

If you move a large team of your agents in an enemy area with a single enemy shinobi, i think that he will be able to catch only one if they are of teh same honour or perhaps two of they have one point of honour less than him etc. The border fort however if i am not mistaken does not have such limitations or if it has they are far greater - ie it can catch many fish in the net at the same time.

However even so, the BF still does not compensate for the ridicoulously cheap price of the shinobi relative to what he can do. Shinobis should have been priced imo at around 400koku each and ninjas slightly more than that (450-500koku) so 1 border fort would = 2 shinobi in v1.12. If the price ratio was set in the 2shinobis:1bf, the BF would be a viable alterative to the masses of Shinobi that dominate and it would essentially protect the AI better from such an exploit as it is in MTW. However in STW it is 8shinobis:1bf in 1.12 and 4shinobies:1bf, without counting the price and time to build the watchtowers that make these ratios even more to the benefit of the mass shinobi use.

[Togakure]

If your economy is strong and you've got koku in the bank, it doesn't hurt to build Border Forts at ports. They act like mosquito lanterns and tend to catch a lot of enemy spies and ninja. Baiting with one-star generals as garrison seems to lure them even more.

For some odd reason, ninja seem to like infiltrating via Sado, the island deep in Uesugi territory. Keeping spies or building a border fort on Sado tends to net more than a fair share of enemy ninja, particularly if you also station a one-star ashigaru garrison there.

In the early and mid-games before reaching the big economy, shinobi are definitely a better choice.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Masamune
Baiting with one-star generals as garrison seems to lure them even more.

heh - yes they do; a similar strategy with a shinobi can help him honor up pretty quickly.

[Brian_]

This is all good stuff that hadn't occurred to me.

One of my initial motivations was that it seemed a cheap and quick way to increase loyalty (and therefore decrease insurrections) not only in the province you install the Border Fort, but also in the neighboring provinces as well. One other thing, it seemed like you'd get the benefit as soon as the BF was finished, rather than having to build a castle, build a Tea House, then recruit the Shinobi one at a time...
But if the forts don't increase loyalty, that shoots down the whole rationale in the first place.

Btw, great idea putting one in a port province--I would never have thought of that.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Brian_
But if the forts don't increase loyalty, that shoots down the whole rationale in the first place.

They most likely do because they act as a counterspy.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Totally agree with Masamune Great ninja traps. Try it with an emissary, as well. The AI simply cannot help itself to go after an emissary sitting in a port province I had one campaign not too long ago where I got a shinobi agent to lvl 6......SIX!! Never had that happen before, or since. And it happened in.....you guessed it....Sado. I used my honor 2 Emissary for bait. Trust me, that agent got to spend as much geisha-house time as he wanted

[Togakure]

I've found that a great way to honor up shinobi is to keep them in a large group and foment insurrection in provinces recently conquered by a clan not native to the province. Each time they create a rebellion they all gain honor. It takes a few successes to reach level six, but not as many as one might think. This is a great way to keep the Oda in check early on as they try to subdue the rebels in their territory while at the same time building up a large and skilled "intel/counter-intel" force.

If I decide to build emissaries at Kazusa for the +1 honor bonus (which I almost always do eventually), I also build a port for quick deployment, and a Border Fort. In this case I'll usually build the BF before training any emissaries. AI ninja just love inactive emissaries, and if you don't have the BF in place first, you end up losing a lot of them before they raise their honor up enough to have a good chance of surviving a ninja attack. Kazusa becomes an excellent ninja trap.

Sometimes a ninja will get through and make a kill in Kazusa, despite the BF. If this happens, I move any emissaries there back and forth between provinces with Border Forts or shinobi until they catch the infiltrator. I do this when I think a general is being targeted too--retreat him through provinces with counterspies, hoping any ninja will get aced before catching up with him.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Masamune
I do this when I think a general is being targeted too--retreat him through provinces with counterspies, hoping any ninja will get aced before catching up with him.

This reminds me a few campaigns that enemy geishas were hunting my daimyo - wild chases and flocks of ninjas getting killed.