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Thread: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

  1. #31

    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientFanTR View Post
    Well, all the groups you have mentioned are indo-european language speaking peoples. Therefore, unless they were heavily influenced by previous peoples, all the celts, germans, scythians, sarmatians, greeks and romans would all have come from Persia or India! In this case you could claim that the Gauls were Britons, as well as Romans, Greeks, Germans and scythians!
    However, being celtic groups, it is likely that the Ligurians, Britons, Gauls etc were related more closely than to other groups, and spoke much more similar languages. (I am not 100% sure but Ligurian must be more closely related to Gallic or Breton than to Latin or Greek)
    As for the Illyrians, Albanians are thought to be the remnants of a continued Illyrian society as others were romanised (like romania) or slavicised (serbia) during occupations.
    Some think them to be pre-indo-european, while general consensus among scholars says that they are also related to celts etc.
    you still dont seem to be getting the fact spread of languages and culture does NOT have to be linked to a mass migration of people.

    European people who speak indo-european languages are very unlikely to have come from persia/india.

  2. #32
    Member Member Horatius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientFanTR View Post
    Well, all the groups you have mentioned are indo-european language speaking peoples. Therefore, unless they were heavily influenced by previous peoples, all the celts, germans, scythians, sarmatians, greeks and romans would all have come from Persia or India! In this case you could claim that the Gauls were Britons, as well as Romans, Greeks, Germans and scythians!
    However, being celtic groups, it is likely that the Ligurians, Britons, Gauls etc were related more closely than to other groups, and spoke much more similar languages. (I am not 100% sure but Ligurian must be more closely related to Gallic or Breton than to Latin or Greek)
    As for the Illyrians, Albanians are thought to be the remnants of a continued Illyrian society as others were romanised (like romania) or slavicised (serbia) during occupations.
    Some think them to be pre-indo-european, while general consensus among scholars says that they are also related to celts etc.
    In some ways yes, but in others I would say no.

    Celtic may have at one point (a very big maybe) been one group, but I really can't imagine a tribesman of the Icenii fitting into Mediolanum.

    Celt and German are very wide sweeping but somewhat obsolete terms, while nationalists ran the Universities they where brought up to the height of their meaning, but the fact that it doesn't define a single ethnicity (there is no way any of them avoided massive amounts of mixing), Culture, or People really does lower it.

    Blood just wasn't important to the ancient. It was important to romantic era people, but barbarian groupings didn't share a culture.

    Galatians were more related to Ligurians then Romans, but they would have felt as isolated and out of place in Northern as they would in Central Italy, and even if you bring in Blood as a justification to group them together they probably were more related to the local peoples near Galatia then anyone in Italy, or Gaul.
    Last edited by Horatius; 11-28-2009 at 00:52. Reason: just a few missng words

  3. #33
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
    while nationalists ran the Universities...
    They still do, however many don't understand that they are nationalists, because they fancy themselves to be internationalists. In fact its like the song says, 'meet the new boss, just like the old boss.' Nonetheless, it can be said, that things have indeed improved to some degree.

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    Last edited by cmacq; 11-28-2009 at 15:15.
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  4. #34
    Member Member AncientFanTR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
    In some ways yes, but in others I would say no.

    Celtic may have at one point (a very big maybe) been one group, but I really can't imagine a tribesman of the Icenii fitting into Mediolanum.

    Celt and German are very wide sweeping but somewhat obsolete terms, while nationalists ran the Universities they where brought up to the height of their meaning, but the fact that it doesn't define a single ethnicity (there is no way any of them avoided massive amounts of mixing), Culture, or People really does lower it.

    Blood just wasn't important to the ancient. It was important to romantic era people, but barbarian groupings didn't share a culture.

    Galatians were more related to Ligurians then Romans, but they would have felt as isolated and out of place in Northern as they would in Central Italy, and even if you bring in Blood as a justification to group them together they probably were more related to the local peoples near Galatia then anyone in Italy, or Gaul.
    The Galatians were celts who invaded and lived in anatolia from around 280BC-60AD, right? they didn't last very long, so it is unlikely that they, european, fair-skinned celts from the north, just went down south and just turned brown and became hittites/babylonians. Of course sub-cultures evolve in different places (all the different celt groups for example) but Galatians probably would not have been as out of place in Liguria/Britain (apart maybe from climate) as they would have been in Rome or even their surrounding Greco-Persian lands.

  5. #35
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Actually the Galatians would have been related to east, noric, or volcae celts. These should not be confused with the west or Gaulish Celts. We have the Belgic Celts which were often called 'those of Germania.' Then there were the more westward types that dwelt near the world’s end who more or less used a Celt-like language, but indeed were not Gauls, Belgae, nor Volcae. And lastly, those who didn't use a Germanic nor a Celtic tongue, were indeed not Celts but lived within greater Germania, and yet for some unknown reason are still called Celts or even Germans; using a recent concept?

    In fact if one must use the word Celt for anything other than the Gauls or Volcae, and one should not, then one would need more than a wee pinch of salt. Nonetheless, compared to Celtyness, using recent constructs, defining what is or is not German is much more complex.


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    Last edited by cmacq; 12-01-2009 at 03:13.
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  6. #36
    iudex thervingiorum Member athanaric's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq View Post
    And lastly, those who didn't use a Germanic nor a Celtic tongue, were indeed not Celts but lived within greater Germania, and yet for some unknown reason are still called Celts?
    What were these guys, actually? Were they even Indo-European?




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  7. #37
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    What were these guys, actually? Were they even Indo-European?
    We should not mix and match. In this case Indo-European refers to a linguistic concept. The spread of language as with culture requires only contact.

    However...


    if one might seek the ratio of IndoEs to non-IndoEs maybe one could look to the animal kingdom and the percentage of predator to prey?


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    Last edited by Ludens; 12-01-2009 at 14:23. Reason: merged posts
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  8. #38

    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    I wonder why pontus and cyprus are not inside the boarders of the greek world, in the map...

  9. #39
    πολέμαρχος Member Apázlinemjó's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    What were these guys, actually? Were they even Indo-European?
    Maybe Finn-Ugor tribes?
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    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq View Post
    if one might seek the ratio of IndoEs to non-IndoEs maybe one could look to the animal kingdom and the percentage of predator to prey?
    Not sure what your getting at there...

    I'm also curious to know what the group you were refering to was, as far as I'm aware the closest non-germanic or celtic speakers to germany were either the finno-ugric speaking tribes, the aquitanians or the protoslavs.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptainplanet View Post
    I wonder why pontus and cyprus are not inside the boarders of the greek world, in the map...
    Quote Originally Posted by bobbin View Post
    I just divided up the map into loose geographic regions, it's not meant to be particularly accurate (this is why i ask people to give the country of origin for a face when posted)
    Why did you ask the same question twice?
    Last edited by bobbin; 12-02-2009 at 22:10.


  11. #41
    Member Member Horatius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq View Post
    They still do, however many don't understand that they are nationalists, because they fancy themselves to be internationalists. In fact its like the song says, 'meet the new boss, just like the old boss.' Nonetheless, it can be said, that things have indeed improved to some degree.

    CmacQ
    True but I think your forgetting how much more extreme this boss was, in good times it is very easy to forget how things used to be, Lucius Malfoy is, scary enough based on how some college professors used to think back in "romantic" times.

    Back on the Galatians not only where they a different ethnicity, but even if they were the same as the Ligurians (which they weren't) a Galatian would have been as out of place in Northern as Central Italy because of culture, and because over at most they would have looked somewhat differently then the locals for maybe 75 years if that?

    I find it very interesting that so many Turks could very easily pose as native French (provided they don't speak because of accent) or English or German etc etc.

  12. #42
    Member Member AncientFanTR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
    I find it very interesting that so many Turks could very easily pose as native French (provided they don't speak because of accent) or English or German etc etc.
    Are you serious? It is very rare that you see a northern-european looking Turk! Most of them are either dark from kurdish/arab/persian influences or (also rare now, a bit like my family) have more central-asian features and look more like huns/tatars/mongols than celts! There has also been greek and slavic influences on the population in the west and north coasts of turkey, but I would say, maybe some rural people in southern france and Turkey may look slightly similar, but I would say that that has more to do with the mediterranean climate and diet rather that genetics and ancestry. Even if there were celtic genes in miniscule parts of the population from 2000 years ago, it is very unlikely that any signs of it would be seen today in a given individual!
    edit: by the way, what do you mean by native French? Celtic, germanic, neanderthals?
    Last edited by AncientFanTR; 12-02-2009 at 23:42.

  13. #43

    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Surely the point of all this is to identify who was in the armies within EB's timeframe. It does not follow that a more common genetic stamp from a region would necessarily also be there among the military. There are countless societies where the elites would have been racially different to the majority population.

    Also, I have to say IMO this indo-greek argument is a little circular. Yes, virtually every historically dominant people in europe came from far to the east. But 1. Many of them came west a long long time ago. So long in fact to make that origin only slightly more relevant than the common African one. 2. Stand 10 people from each European country in a line today and you could very probably identify (or get very close to in the case of eg the Balkans) what that country was.

    ie, there may be elements of a common ancestry if we go back enough hundreds of generations, but in terms of facial identity distinct ethnic groups have clearly emerged.

  14. #44
    Member Member Horatius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientFanTR View Post
    The Galatians were celts who invaded and lived in anatolia from around 280BC-60AD, right? they didn't last very long, so it is unlikely that they, european, fair-skinned celts from the north, just went down south and just turned brown and became hittites/babylonians. Of course sub-cultures evolve in different places (all the different celt groups for example) but Galatians probably would not have been as out of place in Liguria/Britain (apart maybe from climate) as they would have been in Rome or even their surrounding Greco-Persian lands.
    That is certainly news to me, I have met a lot of Turks, and almost all of them have fair skin, here I will even link you this

    http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...IG_468x500.jpg

    http://www.pjvoice.com/v19/photos/assad.jpg

    Pictures can sometimes say a thousand words, people who don't care about blood inevitably will mix on a massive scale, it's natural.

  15. #45
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Who's turk on these pictures?

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    iudex thervingiorum Member athanaric's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
    Pictures can sometimes say a thousand words, people who don't care about blood inevitably will mix on a massive scale, it's natural.
    The second picture shows a Syrian, not a Turk. Bashar al-Assad is the President of Syria...

    As for me, I have never seen a Turk with Northern European features. Some look Slavic (Yugoslavian) though, with the occasional blonde hair (most famous example being Atatürk).




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    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    No of them, one is the president of Syria, the other the president of France

    Sarkozy has a vauge turkish connection in that his grandfather was a Sephardic Jew from Greece born during the Ottoman period, thats a bit weak to base saying he's Turkish on.

    The point still stands though, many people from the middle east could pass for europeans and vice versa.


  18. #48
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbin View Post
    Not sure what your getting at there...

    I'm also curious to know what the group you were refering to was, as far as I'm aware the closest non-germanic or celtic speakers to germany were either the finno-ugric speaking tribes, the aquitanians or the protoslavs.
    Protoslavs??? By this I assume you mean 'speakers of,' right? If so, indeed no. I view proto-Slavic as a rather late development from some more senior IndoE language group; a foster-child, if you will. I also view Germanic much the same, however not developing directly from one dominant IndoE parent. Both minor players until numbers permitted and opportunity presented, they emerged wide-spread upon a world-stage, and where history was absent, claimed to have always been there, so much predominant and supernatural, yet for some unknown reason unnoticed. Contrary to the more nationalistic and popular view; not all IndoE languages were created equal. Nor were all IndoE inspired ethnos. Not to draw too fine a point, but timing is everything and the course of human endeavor always has its ebbs and flows.


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    Last edited by cmacq; 12-03-2009 at 21:01.
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  19. #49
    Member Member AncientFanTR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
    That is certainly news to me, I have met a lot of Turks, and almost all of them have fair skin, here I will even link you this

    http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...IG_468x500.jpg

    http://www.pjvoice.com/v19/photos/assad.jpg

    Pictures can sometimes say a thousand words, people who don't care about blood inevitably will mix on a massive scale, it's natural.
    I have to say, being a Turk who spends 2 months a year in Turkey that it depends on the climate: rural people will probably have more dark skin/middle-eastern influence, while some will look more east asian and fairer (my father's side), blonde turks are rather rare, and probably have slavic/greek influence (like my mother's side). I would definitely be able to tell apart a frenchman from a turk, anyday! I appreciate that southern Frenchies on the Med coast are darker as well, but they certainly don't look middle-eastern. Just check out my face on the face database, under "brown hair, turkey". I don't look arab, or french, or slav! Most turk cypriots I know are definitely darker, but that's from their ancestors having lived for 500 years on an island in the middle of the med, farming under the sun, and mixing with the greeks/arabs living there already.

  20. #50
    Member Member Horatius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    The pictures I selected where random, the point I was making through them was just that it really isn't uncommon to have Middle Easterners looking like Europeans.

    I haven't ever been to the Turkish Countrside so can't comment on it, but the Turks I have met I thought where European untill I starting hearing them speak (accent sticks out like a sore thumb, no offense).

    I also have noted that on Turkish/Greek Nationalist hate fests against each other Greeks select pictures of Turks who look as eastern as possible, while Turks often refute those pictures with one of European looking Turks, while disgraceful picture warfare does not represent anything it is a notable monument to how much the ancients disregarded blood that the type of picture warfare you could find from said groups is possible.

    I would link but I only looked at those hate sights as part of an assignment, and don't reccomend anyone visiting slime places when they don't have to.

  21. #51
    Member Member AncientFanTR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
    The pictures I selected where random, the point I was making through them was just that it really isn't uncommon to have Middle Easterners looking like Europeans.

    I haven't ever been to the Turkish Countrside so can't comment on it, but the Turks I have met I thought where European untill I starting hearing them speak (accent sticks out like a sore thumb, no offense).

    I also have noted that on Turkish/Greek Nationalist hate fests against each other Greeks select pictures of Turks who look as eastern as possible, while Turks often refute those pictures with one of European looking Turks, while disgraceful picture warfare does not represent anything it is a notable monument to how much the ancients disregarded blood that the type of picture warfare you could find from said groups is possible.

    I would link but I only looked at those hate sites as part of an assignment, and don't reccomend anyone visiting slime places when they don't have to.
    Yeah I hate those sites. Of course, living for more than a millenium around Greeks, Kurds and Arabs means that (and these are official figures): around 1/5 of the population of Turkey has strong Eastern "original" turk genes, another 1/5 has Kurdish/persian, 1/5 arab, 1/5 Slav, 1/5 greek, with small groups of Jews, Caucasians and other foreign people. As you can see, this means that Turkey is a hotch-potch of many different peoples, though less so after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and loss of arabia, expulsion of Armenians and Greeks, Jews leaving to found Israel etc.

  22. #52

    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    Well if you take southern Germany it probably has strong ties to the Celts who lived there.
    Meh. We have "strong ties" to every single ethnic group of Europe, since the Thirty Years' War.

  23. #53
    Member Member seienchin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tollheit View Post
    Meh. We have "strong ties" to every single ethnic group of Europe, since the Thirty Years' War.
    What?

  24. #54

    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by seienchin View Post
    What?
    Most people in southern Germany were killed or died from the plague, while the survivors were raped by Germans, Poles, Italians, Scotsmen, Flemings, Croatians, Cossacks, Greek, Turks, French, Spaniards and Swedes.

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    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Most? More like 15-30% which is still an extremely high figure. Although I have read somewhere that Württemberg was particularly hard hit I dont remember the figure though.


  26. #56

    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    For southern Germany it is 30% who survived, not 30% who died.

    The population of Württemberg was reduced by 75% in 5 years alone. Many settlements simply ceased to exist.
    Last edited by Tollheit; 12-06-2009 at 19:58.

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    Member Member Cyclops's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    CMAQ makes a good point about mixing being an ongoing process: history is a blender factory and scooping out cupfuls from different smoothie machines 1000 years apart and saying "its the same thing!" makes me want to quote Heraclius like crazy.

    @Tolheit those are some grim figures about Southern Germany. I hope the depopulation was due to some migration as well as massacre but i'm not being realistic, am I?

    I recall studying the figures for the famines of 1846-8 (in Ireland thats the potatoe famine), and while the millions of deaths were shocking, those proportional losses were not unique: there was a famine in 1721 that cause close to a 40% mortality (lower for the rest of Europe IIRC), as opposed to the 33% or so in 1846-8: with emigration both were nudging 50% depopulation though.

    Wars famines and plagues scraped the tablet almost clean time and again: so many lineages must've been scrubbed from the dna map that modern samples can't hope to indicate past distributions fairly.

    At least they are having a shot at it: also one of the trends I see is the degree of mixing in everybody, its a real slap for the racial purists. Sort of a modern day Book of Ruth.

    On the other hand, I do see certain faces in certain places: I guess its trained in me to do it. I saw very very Italian and Greek faces in Istanbul, and there are lots of "Irish" looking ones here in Australia. My Greek mate (who looks Persian) and I play a gham,e with our greek friends as to which period of Greek history they are from : "King" John is Byzantine, little John is Hellenic, Spiro looks Helladic, and Dmitri is a Persian deserter.
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    Member Member Horatius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientFanTR View Post
    Yeah I hate those sites. Of course, living for more than a millenium around Greeks, Kurds and Arabs means that (and these are official figures): around 1/5 of the population of Turkey has strong Eastern "original" turk genes, another 1/5 has Kurdish/persian, 1/5 arab, 1/5 Slav, 1/5 greek, with small groups of Jews, Caucasians and other foreign people. As you can see, this means that Turkey is a hotch-potch of many different peoples, though less so after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and loss of arabia, expulsion of Armenians and Greeks, Jews leaving to found Israel etc.
    I to hate those websites, and that strongly supports my point.

    The fact that so many people in Turkey and the Middle East today, and there is no reason to doubt the same was much more true at that time, in an age before the racialization of slavery, and Romantic Era Blood Purity theories.

    If Roman Law is any indication inter-racial marriages were very common, Jewish Law forbids inter-religious marriages but has no problem with other types, the only Greek City State that could be said to forbid mixing was Athens, and even they didn't ban the marriages but only bastardized the children.

    Theres no indication from Caesar that the Gauls had any problems in mixing with his men, and today in the random pictures I produced the Middle Easterner looked more European then the current President of France.

    At most it would have taken the Galatians 50 years after establishing their kingdom to become very much integrated both culturally and ethnically to the local population, at least in my opinion, since mortality meant shorter lives then, so the original generation would have died out faster then in modern times.

  29. #59

    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
    I to hate those websites, and that strongly supports my point.

    The fact that so many people in Turkey and the Middle East today, and there is no reason to doubt the same was much more true at that time, in an age before the racialization of slavery, and Romantic Era Blood Purity theories.

    If Roman Law is any indication inter-racial marriages were very common, Jewish Law forbids inter-religious marriages but has no problem with other types, the only Greek City State that could be said to forbid mixing was Athens, and even they didn't ban the marriages but only bastardized the children.

    Theres no indication from Caesar that the Gauls had any problems in mixing with his men, and today in the random pictures I produced the Middle Easterner looked more European then the current President of France.

    At most it would have taken the Galatians 50 years after establishing their kingdom to become very much integrated both culturally and ethnically to the local population, at least in my opinion, since mortality meant shorter lives then, so the original generation would have died out faster then in modern times.
    i agree in general with what you are saying but you are surely wrong about the galatians.

    They were an aggressive tribe who moved on mass into Asia minor (~30,000 initially with subsequent celtic immigration to supplement that number).

    Given that they maintained their own language and culture for centuries, it would suggest that they stuck together, furthermore with such large numbers of their own people there would have been no pressure to interbreed with the local population, and i imagine initially at least it was fairly rare. a such i think they would have been a visibly distinct group for much more than 50 years! think centuries.

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    Member Member AncientFanTR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by KARTLOS View Post
    i agree in general with what you are saying but you are surely wrong about the galatians.

    They were an aggressive tribe who moved on mass into Asia minor (~30,000 initially with subsequent celtic immigration to supplement that number).

    Given that they maintained their own language and culture for centuries, it would suggest that they stuck together, furthermore with such large numbers of their own people there would have been no pressure to interbreed with the local population, and i imagine initially at least it was fairly rare. a such i think they would have been a visibly distinct group for much more than 50 years! think centuries.
    And of course 30,000 celts 2000 years ago probably arent going to visibly affect the phenotype of many people in Anatolia today, especially if they only bred among themselves. Of course after subsequent invasions by hundreds of thousands of greeks after Alexander/Seleukos, and then the Turkomongols in their millions after c.8th Century CE, they would have been assimilated and the recessive blond genes would have been wiped out after a number of generations anyway, so perhaps there are a few thousand people in Turkey today who have celtic ancestors, but after thousands of years of warmer climates and breeding with different peoples, it is extreeeeemely unlikely that you could tell just from their phenotype.

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