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Thread: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

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    Member Member AncientFanTR's Avatar
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    Post Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Ok, bobbin and the other guys are starting to get miffed about us talking about the ethnicities of faces, regions etc. on the faces database thread. I have therefore taken it upon myself to take his advice and start a thread about who lived where in Classical times and how the genetic makeup of Europe/the middleeast has changed over the last 2000 years.

    I have reposted the map from that thread so that we can see which regions it is most relevant to talk about.

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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Germanic people pushed most of the Celtic peoples into smaller corners.
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    Member Member AncientFanTR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    Germanic people pushed most of the Celtic peoples into smaller corners.
    Did the germanic people come from Caucasus like celts or from steppe like iranian nomads and slavs?

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    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    I think the Steppes as we came from around Iran.

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    Member Member AncientFanTR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    I think the Steppes as we came from around Iran.
    It's very interesting that the word "brother" in german is "bruder" and in persian it is "birader" a bit close to be a coincidence, no?

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    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Yes the Germanic languages are a bit similar to the Persian ones. When I listened to this Iranian song it did sound a bit familiar.
    Last edited by Phalanx300; 11-22-2009 at 13:30.

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    EB on ALX player Member ziegenpeter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientFanTR View Post
    It's very interesting that the word "brother" in german is "bruder" and in persian it is "birader" a bit close to be a coincidence, no?
    Well it isn't because these are all indo-european languages.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_people

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    Member Member Smeel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    Germanic people pushed most of the Celtic peoples into smaller corners.
    Except that they actually didn't. The franks where only a minority at best in france, a ruling class with no significant genetic impression on the common people, and from what I've read this was mostly the case in Britain too. altough the saxons immigrated in greater numbers, most british people are still of celtic origin, they just speak a germanic language. It's all about cultural assimilation
    Last edited by Smeel; 11-22-2009 at 14:10.

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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    Germanic culture pushed most of the Celtic peoples into smaller corners.
    Fixed. Yes they are cousin peoples because everyone besides Fins and Vasques(maybe the Greeks, I forget) decend from the Aryan steppe warriors that conquered Europe, India, and Iran. However this begs the question. How much genetic contribution is there from the pre-Aryan peoples? Or did this conquest flood the genetic pool or erase the indigenous European people?

    This also begs the question of what did pre-Aryan Europeans actually look like since Discovery network likes to show pre-Aryan people looking like modern day Europeans.
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    afaik at least Dorian Greeks were indo-Europeans. don't know about the others tho.
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    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    "Pre Aryan" europeans would have looked the same a europeans today, people need to understand that just because most of europe speaks indoeuropean languages doesn't mean most of europe is decended from the orginal speakers. In most cases europeans are decended from the original settlers that recolonised the area after the last ice age.

    The question shouldn't be how much is left of the orignal inhabitants but by how much did any invasion/migration affect the indigenous inhabitants, which in most cases in not much at all.

    Very good explination of european genetics.


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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Cool.
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    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Err, the celts didn't come from the Caucasus. "Caucasian" is simply a term thought up by a scientist enamoured with the region's women.
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    why cyprus and pontus are not included in the greek area?

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    Member Member AncientFanTR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by A Very Super Market View Post
    Err, the celts didn't come from the Caucasus. "Caucasian" is simply a term thought up by a scientist enamoured with the region's women.
    AFAIK Celts were actually caucasian and were descended from indo-aryans, hence celtic being an indo-european language and a number of thousands of years ago, they were expelled from the caucasus region by the early Scythians and went to europe, assimilating the "indigenous" "original Celts" who were known by greeks as "keltikoi" and the change apparently went on without the greeks knowledge and so the original Celts were replaced by the Celts we have known for the last 3000 years.
    (btw I am not sure if this is 100% correct, please be merciful!)

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    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientFanTR View Post
    AFAIK Celts were actually caucasian and were descended from indo-aryans, hence celtic being an indo-european language and a number of thousands of years ago, they were expelled from the caucasus region by the early Scythians and went to europe, assimilating the "indigenous" "original Celts" who were known by greeks as "keltikoi" and the change apparently went on without the greeks knowledge and so the original Celts were replaced by the Celts we have known for the last 3000 years.
    (btw I am not sure if this is 100% correct, please be merciful!)
    To be more precise the speakers of the language that would go on to form the celtic languages (and possibly the italic ones too) orginated (it is theorised) in the pontic steppe and transferred their language through migration and cultural contact to the peoples of central europe who would become what we know as the celts, there was never a celtic people speaking a celtic language in that region of the world at that time, they didn't exist, only people who spoke some percursor language did. Think of it like this, you wouldn't expect germans from EBs timeframe to speak english even though english is a germanic language would you?

    Again as I've said before just because a people derive their language, culture or even ethnicity from a group doesn't mean they are genetically related to that group. The Celts of EB were not direct decendants of the speakers of the original indoeuropean language just people who had adopted a decendant of that language.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptainplanet View Post
    why cyprus and pontus are not included in the greek area?
    I just divided up the map into loose geographic regions, it's not meant to be particularly accurate (this is why i ask people to give the country of origin for a face when posted)
    Last edited by bobbin; 11-22-2009 at 20:57.


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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    And then there are the Etruscans who are related to people from Asia Minor somehow...
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    and afterall were all africans and we all* speak Indo-european languages, seems were all brothers, let's hug!

    * this is not an invitation for all you chinese** guys to say: not me!

    ** and neither for you other non-indo-europeans
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    Member Member AncientFanTR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Putt View Post
    and afterall were all africans and we all* speak Indo-european languages, seems were all brothers, let's hug!
    Not me, I speak an altaic language: turkish!
    * this is not an invitation for all you chinese** guys to say: not me!

    ** and neither for you other non-indo-europeans
    Ohhh...

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    Member Member seienchin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Well, this is a really complex topic and I am still struggling to find really convincing theories after researches about the gen-pool proofed most things scientists would have never disputed a few years ago, totally wrong. Like the irish beeing celtic.
    Still there has never been a genetic research with too many people so lets dig out this thread in 10years again and see what scientists believe then, maybe the germans arent believed to be related to the germanic people anymore by then

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    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Well if you take southern Germany it probably has strong ties to the Celts who lived there. I'd say only the more middle and northern areas would be for the biggest part still Germanic.

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    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientFanTR View Post
    It's very interesting that the word "brother" in german is "bruder" and in persian it is "birader" a bit close to be a coincidence, no?
    Well it's not THAT coincidential, since english is a Germanic language
    Last edited by SwissBarbar; 11-23-2009 at 09:09.
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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    'Brother' comes from *bʰréh₂tēr. If you want to see how that relates to about 20 languages:

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...%82%82t%C4%93r
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    πολέμαρχος Member Apázlinemjó's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientFanTR View Post
    Not me, I speak an altaic language: turkish!

    Ohhh...
    Me neither, I speak an Uralic language.
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Apázlinemjó View Post
    Me neither, I speak an Uralic language.
    So do I

    (althoug I do speak some Indo-European languages quite well...)
    Last edited by HunGeneral; 11-23-2009 at 12:45. Reason: Spelling
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    Member Member AncientFanTR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by SwissBarbar View Post
    Well it's not THAT coincidential, since english is a Germanic language
    I meant the link between german and persian, obviously!

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    Member Member Cyclops's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbin View Post
    *snipped thoughtful post and helpful links*
    Great starting place that wiki link. Shows the British Isles have a strong fundamental connection to France and Iberia, sort of an "atlantic zone", perhaps even more than to the "North sea zone" of Germany and scandinavia.

    My feeling is that people cluster around bodies of water (lajkes, seas and rivers) in pre modern cultures, and empires and nation states tend to have defensible borders on these very features, cutting across old culture clusters.

    Islam and christendom cut the old Punic and Hellenic zones of the middle sea, Germany and France have carved the Frankish heartland in two, the Gaelic zone around the Irish sea straddles 5 polities, the germanic communities around the North sea are slowly reassmembling under the EU.

    I guess our notion of ethnicities are often backprojected self justificatioons of modern nation states.
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    Member Member Horatius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Unless I am very much mistaken but the term Germanic and Celtic are not very descriptive.

    Gauls just weren't Britons, Britons weren't Ligurians, Ligurians weren't Venetii, Venetii weren't Galatians etc etc

    With the German groups to, there were unless I'm much mistaken as many Sarmatians amongst the Vandals as "Germans".

    Barbarian terms have been very distorted in the last few thousand years by nationalists, I would much rather talk about the different groups, what (little) we know about them, and their interactions with others, I highly doubt we will ever be able to prove they came from anywere considering even the idea of Celts coming from central Europe raises the question then what were the Illyrians?

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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    In general,

    I understand that this is being past off to the public, by some scientist, as reasonable fact. However, because the internal resolution is so great and the relative sample size so small, the conclusions from current genetic studies should be taken with much more than a grain of salt. In other words, it may seem that current interpretations of the flawed data might well be little more than rank speculation. Sorry to all concerned, yet much of this is pointless at best.


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    Last edited by cmacq; 11-26-2009 at 13:04.
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    Member Member AncientFanTR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethnicities of peoples in different regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
    Unless I am very much mistaken but the term Germanic and Celtic are not very descriptive.

    Gauls just weren't Britons, Britons weren't Ligurians, Ligurians weren't Venetii, Venetii weren't Galatians etc etc

    With the German groups to, there were unless I'm much mistaken as many Sarmatians amongst the Vandals as "Germans".

    Barbarian terms have been very distorted in the last few thousand years by nationalists, I would much rather talk about the different groups, what (little) we know about them, and their interactions with others, I highly doubt we will ever be able to prove they came from anywere considering even the idea of Celts coming from central Europe raises the question then what were the Illyrians?
    Well, all the groups you have mentioned are indo-european language speaking peoples. Therefore, unless they were heavily influenced by previous peoples, all the celts, germans, scythians, sarmatians, greeks and romans would all have come from Persia or India! In this case you could claim that the Gauls were Britons, as well as Romans, Greeks, Germans and scythians!
    However, being celtic groups, it is likely that the Ligurians, Britons, Gauls etc were related more closely than to other groups, and spoke much more similar languages. (I am not 100% sure but Ligurian must be more closely related to Gallic or Breton than to Latin or Greek)
    As for the Illyrians, Albanians are thought to be the remnants of a continued Illyrian society as others were romanised (like romania) or slavicised (serbia) during occupations.
    Some think them to be pre-indo-european, while general consensus among scholars says that they are also related to celts etc.
    Last edited by AncientFanTR; 11-26-2009 at 23:02.

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