Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 34

Thread: Warrior Monks or No Dachi? The Quest for Uber-Infantry

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Member Member Scipio Valorus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Hello all. I'm sure this has been debated endlessly on the forum, but being a newbie here, I thought I would dredge it up again. Personally, I don't use No-Dachi very much. I prefer Warrior Monks because of

    1. Fanatical Morale: I've had a 5-Honour WM unit that I foolishly marched into a canyon, only to have 2 units of YS run down the sides from their concealed posistions. The YS had the advantage of surprise and height, yet my WM annihilated one unit and held out long enough for reinforcements to arrive on scene, saving the day and the unit. (Started the battle with 49 WM in that unit, ended the battle with 31.

    2. Better defense value: Read above

    3. Buddha: Other units rout more easily (if Buddhist as well) when faced with these guys, they really seem reluctant to fight them for a long period of time.


    Other than cost, can anyone give me good reasons to use No-Dachi as my elite shock troops?


    ------------------
    The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road to either safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected.
    The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road to either safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected.

  2. #2
    Guest 's Avatar

    Default

    Warrior Monks are the best unit in Shogun: Total War. They are critisiced to be unbalanced because unlike all other units; no unit can kill the warrior monks at the same honour level.

    No-Dachi can be useful in multiplayer low koku games but Monkeys are better than ND anyway.

    P.S. Buying many monks in multiplayer games produce unbalanced battles and monk rushers are considered as dishounourable.


    ------------------
    Honour to Clan No Fear.

    Visit my resource centre at: http://terazawa.totalwar.org

  3. #3
    Member Member Scipio Valorus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
    Warrior Monks are the best unit in Shogun: Total War. They are critisiced to be unbalanced because unlike all other units; no unit can kill the warrior monks at the same honour level.
    [/QUOTE]

    What about Heavy Cavalry? I've routed many a monk with these fine fellows.

    I haven't played a MP game yet, but how can a monk rush be considered dis-honourable? Especially since the Art of War is supposed to be the bible for this game, I would think seeking any advantage over your enemy would be preferable. Besides, a rush has to be the most stupid maneuver ever, surely even one made of monks could be defeated.

    ------------------
    The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road to either safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected.
    The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road to either safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected.

  4. #4
    Guest 's Avatar

    Default

    Quote Originally posted by Scipio Valorus:
    What about Heavy Cavalry? I've routed many a monk with these fine fellows.
    [/QUOTE]

    I once thought like you as well. I playtested with a friend of mine...

    1 HC hon2 VS 1 WM hon2
    on green fine day
    test on best of 5 basis

    The Warrior Monk won everytime.


    ------------------
    Honour to Clan No Fear.

    Visit my resource centre at: http://terazawa.totalwar.org

  5. #5
    Member Member CaptMac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO, U.S.
    Posts
    195

    Default

    I prefer WM over No-Dachi.
    In every situation, No-Dachi seem to take more losses than the Monks. Even Ashi units appear sturdier and take less losses (if they don't run).
    For infantry/melee I use a mix of WM/Sams backed by missles (archer/musk). Throw in some Cav and you are good all around!
    WMs will take a beating and still have a sizeable unit strength after a fierce fight. With No-Dachi unit you end up with alot less troops..I end up nominating them for arrow gatherers next battle.

    ------------------
    The only thing you have to regret are the chances not taken.
    Expect the unexpected and take in air.
    The only thing you have to regret are the chances not taken.
    Expect the unexpected and take in air.

  6. #6
    Member Member Scipio Valorus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    32

    Default

    It is as I thought then. Here are the well known stats for ND and WM:

    Warrior Monks No-Dachi
    Cost: 500 400
    Attack: 5 5
    Defence: 2 -2
    Armour: 1 1
    Morale: 8 8
    Walk: 7 7
    Run: 12 12

    Why are they in the game, some might ask?

    I see three possibilities:

    1. Shimazu. Either through historical acuuracy, (not sure about that, anyone here know?) or the simple need to give them a bonus, the Shimazu excel at producing these guys. Since they are the most likely to convert, they still need a good shock part of their army, thus the ND.

    2. Cost. Cheap-minded Daimyos with a hard-on for ashigaru would prefer the relative ease of getting a legendary swordsman and building a sword dojo, rather then the expense of producing a Large Castle and a Buddhist Temple. Of course there is also the obvious cost of the two units themselves.

    3. Christianity. As I explored with the Shimazu analysis, other Daimyos too would want (if converted) access to a highly effective shock unit, rather then exclusively relying on their new toys (which is all I really view gunpowder weapons at this point in my Daishohood, but that is another thread) to carry the day for them.


    As you can see, there are cases to be made for No-Dachi, but in my opinon, it's still more effective to use Warrior Monks in any situation that could call for No-Dachi.



    ------------------
    The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road to either safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected.
    The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road to either safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected.

  7. #7
    Member Member smeegol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    56

    Default

    What pisses me off about monks is that they can fight off incredible odds. Two units of 1 honor monks defended against aproximately 1500 yari samurai. The only explanation I had was they they were all 0-1 honor.

    This still is outrageous. They were outnumbered 5 to 1! They were surrounded and in the middle of my entire army getting crushed and they just destroyed me with ease. They hardly had any losses.

    Since the campaign was still early on, I didn't have legendary spear dojo yet. I had also concentrated mainly on producing a rich clan so my men didn't have much battle experience. I ended up making a massive army of about 3000 men and crushed those fuggas.

  8. #8
    Member Member Chirotera's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI, United States
    Posts
    17

    Default

    One also has to figure in the expansion. (for MP) That is to say it may be cheaper to buy your nodachi armor and raise their defense to be more even with the monks, than to buy monks straight up. Expansion aside though, I hate monks. I prefer Nodachi, as it forces me to use my brain more. Not that I don't use monks, still take about 3 units, I just don't like them to be the focus of my army.

    Amatsu

  9. #9
    Member Member KumaRatta Yamamoto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    950

    Default

    Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
    I once thought like you as well. I playtested with a friend of mine...

    1 HC hon2 VS 1 WM hon2
    on green fine day
    test on best of 5 basis

    The Warrior Monk won everytime.


    In MP and custom battles it is so true, but in SP i had sometimes a different experience. I think it is because of the armor upgrades.

    Since that in the expansion pack, it seems that we will be able to add armor, i am curious to see if it will change things a bit (HC vs WM ).

    KumaRatta Yamamoto Sonkei soshite yuki Ratta Ichizoku. Come and visit us : www.rattaclan.homestead.com

  10. #10
    Member Member theforce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Larnaca,none,Cyprus
    Posts
    2,287

    Default

    That is weird!!!
    4 Ys could kill the wm.

    ------------------
    Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
    http://darksideclan.fateback.com
    Enter the Darkside...
    I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!
    http://www.dedicatedgaming.com/~angelsofdarkness

  11. #11
    Member Member TheDarkElite's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    England
    Posts
    14

    Default

    monks can beat up no-dachi

  12. #12
    Summa Rudis Senior Member Catiline's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Dubai
    Posts
    5,112

    Default

    I think it's fully established No dachi are Monk-Lites. Nice for a change when it doesn't matter, but rarely as satisfying. Used properly in low koku games they can be useful, but without screening fire they're going to die, and without the defence bonus a reduced numbers no dachi unit is going to break very quickly. You HAVE to flank with them.

    Also with a bit of luck and some high ground archers can sometimes beat off monks, provided they kill enough at a distance. wouldn't want to rely on it happening though

    ------------------
    Unless the Persians fly away like birds, hide in the earth like mice, or leap into a lake like frogs, they will never see their homes again, but will die under our arrows

    [This message has been edited by Catiline (edited 06-07-2001).]
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra

  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member Vanya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Posts
    3,151

    Default

    Quote Originally posted by Catiline:
    I think it's fully established No dachi are Monk-Lites.
    [/QUOTE]

    Nah. The difference is simple: the Monks go with Buddha's compassion, which is worth 200 koku and +4 defense. Thats the only difference. So No-Dachis (ie, Sling-Blades) are but monk wannabes... priests with no master...

    So, are there any folks out there that take an army of all mounted pig-stickers and sling-blades?

    [Sips sake, eats popcorn]

  14. #14
    Member Member theforce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Larnaca,none,Cyprus
    Posts
    2,287

    Default

    Maybe a Christian no-dashi can kill a warrior monk cause there is some morale hit of attacking a unit like warrior monks. So maybe with out that morale penalty other units can kill warrior monks like HC.

    ------------------
    Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
    http://darksideclan.fateback.com
    Enter the Darkside...
    I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!
    http://www.dedicatedgaming.com/~angelsofdarkness

  15. #15
    Member Member BanzaiZAP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Maui, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    502

    Default

    You can usually get ND much earlier than WM in the SP campaign, in addition to the cost difference. By the time I get my first monks, the Sword Dojo already has an attached armory and swordsmith. But in general, yeah, monks are tougher than no-dachi.

    -- B)

  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member Kraellin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    7,093

    Default

    scipio,

    check your figures on the cost of nd's again. i know in multi it's 300, not 400 for nd. and that makes a big diff.

    K.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Senior Member Krasturak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Tarranak
    Posts
    1,402

    Default

    Krast knows the answer:

    On 'Battle Calculator', 100 NoDachi vs 60 Monks (that's the cost ratio), gives this result:

    No-Dachi win with 21 survivors.
    Monks need 16 more men to win.

    Krast uses No-Dachi frequently.

    As a side note on this issue, consider the costs of increasing Hon for both these unit types. No-Dachi are cheaper all the way up to 9 Hon.

    Think about it.

  18. #18

    Default

    i was the first one to show tera the might of WM vs HC ......
    O4B / Masked

  19. #19
    Member Member RageFury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Southampton, UK
    Posts
    183

    Default

    i dunno bout that actually co althoug unit 4 unit the warrior monk wins vs Hev Cav...

    In a battle i have routed many an army by chargin my hev cav at a flankin unit o Monks...although the monks win in the long run the morale bklow when the hev cav hits is enormous...

    Heavy Cavalry r great ))

    -Fury
    "The only certainties in life are that we are born and we die. The rest is just a sea of complexity"

  20. #20
    Guest 's Avatar

    Default

    there's nothing wrong with how powerful the monks are, what is wrong is the fact that you have an easy accsess to them in SP, and let's not get started about MP at all... they should be the strongest unit, but they should also be very hard to come by, we're talking 1 unit, perhaps 2 occasionally, limit per army; that would be something more historically accurate, and ppl would have to make good use of them

    ------------------
    jd
    - I hate romantic comedies, which is pretty strange considering that my whole love life is a big JOKE -

  21. #21

    Default

    HC 8 (attacking) v WM 8

    HC WIN!!! Ok, they only had 11 men left and the WM had 6 when the Taisho 'lost his head'...but it was one for the HC all the same.
    He is a foolish man who lies awake all night and broods over everything. When morning breaks he is weary and all his trouble is the same as it was.

  22. #22
    Member Member MoriFait Terazawa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    belfast/northern irlenad
    Posts
    28

    Default

    well the best thing 2 do would be to have a bit of both i think they r both great units so i use them both wether it be 4 monks and 1 nd i have 2 have a mix of them as they both have bonuses.

    ------------------
    Honour to the Mori clan
    MoriFait Terazawa..
    Honour to the Mori clan
    MoriFait Terazawa..

  23. #23
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    2,762

    Default

    I posted this months ago but it seems like a good time to do it again.

    Quote Here's what Stephen Turnbull says about monks.
    After quoting a manuscript description of combat between a fully armored monk and a mounted samurai, Turnbull writes "Battles involving warrior monks, however, are few and far between".

    Later he says, "In conclusion, therefore, it can be seen the the warrior monks were at their most influential when dealing with superstitious courtiers or ignorant townsfolk. In disputes between temples their fighting skills came into their own, BUT WERE TO PROVE NO MATCH FOR THE SAMURAI".

    The caps are my own emphasis. These quotes are from Samurai Warfare, page 42.

    So why are monks so potent in Shogun you ask? Maybe it was images of David Caradine in in the old TV show "Kung Fu"! Who knows? Monks actualy wore armor, too, but not in the game. No sir.

    The fact is, according to the developer's own history consultant, the values monks get in the game are right off the stable floor.[/QUOTE]

    Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Kraellin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    7,093

    Default

    ok all you history buffs, if they'd meant it to be accurate they'd have called it a re-creation or at least a simulation. it's a bloody GAME for crying out loud!

    sorry, i get carried away sometimes when dealing with statisticians, bean counters and history buffs. they tend to take the game apart piece by piece and examine every little piece and compare it to some dusty old book article that only one of 'them' would know about....GO OUT AND KILL SOMETHING, for god's sake!

    lol.

    K.

  25. #25
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Western New Yuck
    Posts
    7,914

    Default

    Whew,feel better Kraellin?Don't be so wishy-washy,tell us how you really feel.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*

  26. #26

    Default

    Yeah the monks are unbalanced, i wish they would replace them with samurai that actually use KATANAS!!!!!!!!

    ------------------
    "Failure is not an option"
    I will be Baron of the world.


  27. #27
    Senior Member Senior Member Dark Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    2,749

    Default

    Well I am studying to be a bean counter and dont do that.

    But monks are over powered I wish you could put a cap on how many are used or reduce there stats. Coz at teh moment when I see a heap of them I just have no fun.

    ------------------
    DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon
    DP is correct - Shiro

  28. #28
    leoknite Member KenchiKnite's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Chula Vista, Ca, USA
    Posts
    58

    Default

    personally Yari Samurai are the bomb!

    ------------------
    Within a handful of ashes lies the birth of a new age, with the traditions of GOLDEN AGE, Honour to Clan Kenchikuka!
    Within a handful of ashes lies the birth of a new age, with the traditions of the GOLDEN AGE, Honour to Clan Kenchikuka!

  29. #29

    Default

    YS are only used to take archer fire.

  30. #30
    Sideswipe feature king Member shingenmitch2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    855

    Default

    SHIGI QUTUQU --
    The Heavy Cavalry lost in ur post

    After the battle you had:
    HC 11 left, WM 6 left

    well if u spent 800 on that HC and I only spent 500 on the WM, I consider that a win for the WM. PLUS I could have killed that HC with my 200 koku YS, I could not touch that WM with ANY YS.
    Retreat? Hell, we're just attacking in a different direction...

    THE DEADLY SHINGEN



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO