javelins too weak?

**Cambyses** · 12-02-2009, 03:12

Were akontistai really hunters? I mean was anyone non-noble really a hunter in developed and populous areas of the ancient world, such as Greece? IMO these guys were "cannon fodder" designed to slow down and tire out the enemy, not score large numbers of kills.

**Megas Methuselah** · 12-02-2009, 04:03

Originally Posted by Cambyses

Were akontistai really hunters? I mean was anyone non-noble really a hunter in developed and populous areas of the ancient world, such as Greece? IMO these guys were "cannon fodder" designed to slow down and tire out the enemy, not score large numbers of kills.

Urban poor that would do just as good, if not more, in serving as a ship's rowers? Dunno. We must keep in mind, though, that this was a primarily rural society.

**Knight of Heaven** · 12-02-2009, 04:27

Actualy in reality the javelins werent a killers in ancient battlefields. Their role often was to soften a charge, their kill rates werent that high.

The romans for instance would know the importance of kiling the momento of the enemy charge with their pilum. But javelins werent killers by no means. the same for slingers and even archers. Only units with a special training in composite bows, were that much efective. i think EB portrait this very well in my opinion.

**Cute Wolf** · 12-02-2009, 04:36

Yeah, btw you can't hope nothing more with akontistai and gundi palta, than become meatshields and annoyances in the battlefield, they are untrained peasants and urban poors pressed for providing good numbers in battle, and soak up enemy missiles (hence their cheap costs and upkeep).

If you want to see how effective the javelins are, use peltastai, they are my primary killers most of the early to middle part in my Hellenistic faction campaigns...

**Tollheit** · 12-02-2009, 09:21

Originally Posted by Ludens

I am pretty sure that the story that shield value is doubled by phalanx mode is myth.

What is your reasoning for this?

Phalanx units are virtually impervious vs missiles from the front when in phalanx mode, while I do get some odd casualties when not in phalanx mode. That seems to be my experience, at least, which seems to fit nicely with doubled phalanx shield value.

I. e. I assume shield value is doubled vs. missiles and doubled again by phalanx mode.

Which is why I reverted to the vanilla shield value system for phalanxes (3 for levy phalanx, 4 for other phalanx) and raised their defence skill.

**Rahwana** · 12-02-2009, 13:29

Originally Posted by Tollheit

What is your reasoning for this?

Phalanx units are virtually impervious vs missiles from the front when in phalanx mode, while I do get some odd casualties when not in phalanx mode. That seems to be my experience, at least, which seems to fit nicely with doubled phalanx shield value.

I. e. I assume shield value is doubled vs. missiles and doubled again by phalanx mode.

Which is why I reverted to the vanilla shield value system for phalanxes (3 for levy phalanx, 4 for other phalanx) and raised their defence skill.

You means that even in 3 shield values, the phalanx got 12 shield against missile in phalanx mode?

**Tollheit** · 12-02-2009, 13:38

That's what I think, yes (although I have no proof).

**Leão magno** · 12-02-2009, 14:04

Javelins seens balanced for me

! If Akontistai were phalanx killers generals would have never created Peltastai and Thureophoroi, they would stick to the cheaper unit.

**Slaists** · 12-02-2009, 17:37

Originally Posted by Leão magno

Javelins seens balanced for me

! If Akontistai were phalanx killers generals would have never created Peltastai and Thureophoroi, they would stick to the cheaper unit.

I feel, akondistai and the likes are balanced fine as far as attacking armored/shielded foes from the front is concerned. However, I do not find it realistic that 120 men cannot score more than a couple kills while, at point blank range, throwing javelins into unprotected BACKS of 120 men who are frontally engaged with another unit. In reality, you'd have to try really hard to MISS in such a situation...

**Apázlinemjó** · 12-02-2009, 17:50

Originally Posted by Slaists

I feel, akondistai and the likes are balanced fine as far as attacking armored/shielded foes from the front is concerned. However, I do not find it realistic that 120 men cannot score more than a couple kills while, at point blank range, throwing javelins into unprotected BACKS of 120 men who are frontally engaged with another unit. In reality, you'd have to try really hard to MISS in such a situation...

I guess it works like this because of the limitation of the RTW engine.

**Ludens** · 12-02-2009, 14:48

Originally Posted by Tollheit

What is your reasoning for this?

In EB, well-shielded units such as legionaries are already very resistant to missile fire. Phalangites have the highest shield value and good armour as well, so you'd expect them to be almost immune. Also, I'd expect this feature to be documented somewhere, or else that would have discovered it during testing, but no-one seems to know whether this occurred.

**Tollheit** · 12-02-2009, 19:17

Originally Posted by Ludens

In EB, well-shielded units such as legionaries are already very resistant to missile fire. Phalangites have the highest shield value and good armour as well, so you'd expect them to be almost immune. Also, I'd expect this feature to be documented somewhere, or else that would have discovered it during testing, but no-one seems to know whether this occurred.

I did some testing today. Since phalangitai are so well armored that the AI will not waste any ammo on them in 1vs1 custom battles, I did some modding first.
Klerouchikoi Phalangitai: defence 1,1,5 (armor,skill,shield)
Saka Foot Archers: secondary attack 1, defence 0,0,0, unit size 42 on huge (in order to discourage melee)

I did 8 battles, 4 using phalanx mode and 4 without phalanx mode.
I noted the casualties once the archers had exhausted their ammunition.
No maneuvering except for approach of archers; flat terrain.
When I used phalanx mode, the AI archers managed to shoot: 17/19/22/17 phalangitai
When I didn't use phalanx, the AI archers managed to shoot: 40/30/36/42 phalangitai

My conclusion: it seems to be plausible that phalanx mode does increase the effective shield value.

**Finn MacCumhail** · 12-02-2009, 19:52

Of cause! I haven't read all thread, coz too many letters, so excuse me if it was already mentioned.

IRL when sarisofors (spelling?) use their special ability, then their spears behaive like defense system. Imagine wall of spears, the possibility that the arrow will hit the spear bigger then it hit man, or even then he has helmet, shield and so on.