javelins too weak?

[Tollheit]

I am pretty sure that the story that shield value is doubled by phalanx mode is myth.

What is your reasoning for this?

Phalanx units are virtually impervious vs missiles from the front when in phalanx mode, while I do get some odd casualties when not in phalanx mode. That seems to be my experience, at least, which seems to fit nicely with doubled phalanx shield value.

I. e. I assume shield value is doubled vs. missiles and doubled again by phalanx mode.

Which is why I reverted to the vanilla shield value system for phalanxes (3 for levy phalanx, 4 for other phalanx) and raised their defence skill.

[Rahwana]

What is your reasoning for this?

Phalanx units are virtually impervious vs missiles from the front when in phalanx mode, while I do get some odd casualties when not in phalanx mode. That seems to be my experience, at least, which seems to fit nicely with doubled phalanx shield value.

I. e. I assume shield value is doubled vs. missiles and doubled again by phalanx mode.

Which is why I reverted to the vanilla shield value system for phalanxes (3 for levy phalanx, 4 for other phalanx) and raised their defence skill.

You means that even in 3 shield values, the phalanx got 12 shield against missile in phalanx mode?

[Tollheit]

That's what I think, yes (although I have no proof).

[Leão magno]

Javelins seens balanced for me! If Akontistai were phalanx killers generals would have never created Peltastai and Thureophoroi, they would stick to the cheaper unit.

[Slaists]

Javelins seens balanced for me! If Akontistai were phalanx killers generals would have never created Peltastai and Thureophoroi, they would stick to the cheaper unit.

I feel, akondistai and the likes are balanced fine as far as attacking armored/shielded foes from the front is concerned. However, I do not find it realistic that 120 men cannot score more than a couple kills while, at point blank range, throwing javelins into unprotected BACKS of 120 men who are frontally engaged with another unit. In reality, you'd have to try really hard to MISS in such a situation...

[Apázlinemjó]

I feel, akondistai and the likes are balanced fine as far as attacking armored/shielded foes from the front is concerned. However, I do not find it realistic that 120 men cannot score more than a couple kills while, at point blank range, throwing javelins into unprotected BACKS of 120 men who are frontally engaged with another unit. In reality, you'd have to try really hard to MISS in such a situation...

I guess it works like this because of the limitation of the RTW engine.

[WinsingtonIII]

I think part of the problem is that a lot of the damage that a massed volley of javelins would do in real life other than just kill the enemy is not represented well by the RTW engine. Obviously, there should be a big morale drop, which may be represented by the morale drop of being under missile fire in RTW. However, a major effect of javelins was to render shields useless. When a javelin became stuck in a shield, it made it pretty much useless, and the user would usually just discard the shield and go into melee combat without it, which of course, made them much more vulnerable. Of course, this cannot be represented in the RTW engine.

That said, I think the major problem is not the weak nature of javelins, because they will devastate many units, but the overpowered nature of phalanxes when hit by missiles from the front. They should of course be very resistant to missiles from the front, but in RTW they are practically invincible, which is ridiculous.

[Ludens]

What is your reasoning for this?

In EB, well-shielded units such as legionaries are already very resistant to missile fire. Phalangites have the highest shield value and good armour as well, so you'd expect them to be almost immune. Also, I'd expect this feature to be documented somewhere, or else that would have discovered it during testing, but no-one seems to know whether this occurred.

[Tollheit]

In EB, well-shielded units such as legionaries are already very resistant to missile fire. Phalangites have the highest shield value and good armour as well, so you'd expect them to be almost immune. Also, I'd expect this feature to be documented somewhere, or else that would have discovered it during testing, but no-one seems to know whether this occurred.

I did some testing today. Since phalangitai are so well armored that the AI will not waste any ammo on them in 1vs1 custom battles, I did some modding first.
Klerouchikoi Phalangitai: defence 1,1,5 (armor,skill,shield)
Saka Foot Archers: secondary attack 1, defence 0,0,0, unit size 42 on huge (in order to discourage melee)

I did 8 battles, 4 using phalanx mode and 4 without phalanx mode.
I noted the casualties once the archers had exhausted their ammunition.
No maneuvering except for approach of archers; flat terrain.
When I used phalanx mode, the AI archers managed to shoot: 17/19/22/17 phalangitai
When I didn't use phalanx, the AI archers managed to shoot: 40/30/36/42 phalangitai

My conclusion: it seems to be plausible that phalanx mode does increase the effective shield value.

[Finn MacCumhail]

Of cause! I haven't read all thread, coz too many letters, so excuse me if it was already mentioned.

IRL when sarisofors (spelling?) use their special ability, then their spears behaive like defense system. Imagine wall of spears, the possibility that the arrow will hit the spear bigger then it hit man, or even then he has helmet, shield and so on.